mrpossum 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG ($2.05)MP ($6.25)CO ($13.38)Button ($12.70)Hero (SB) ($5.47)BB ($9.91)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, J2 folds, CO calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Button calls $0.15Flop: ($0.50) 6, 2, 7(2 players)Hero checks, Button checksTurn: ($0.50) 8(2 players)Hero bets $0.30, Button raises to $0.60, Hero raises to $1.20, Button calls $0.60River: ($2.90) 2(2 players)Hero bets $2, Button calls $2Total pot: $6.90 | Rake: $0.30Button mucked 5, 4 (straight, eight high).Hero had Q, J (flush, Queen high).Outcome: Hero won $6.60Just wondering if you will play it this way.Posting this hand cause i got scolded for raising OOP with QJs so i thought it would be interesting to discuss. Link to post Share on other sites
JaNnN 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Stratforum... Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The flop check was probably a pretty bad idea, imo, and I would guess that a min-3-bet on the turn is worse than both a standard-size 3-bet and a call and river c/r, but I don't play NLH, so for all I know it's not that horrible. But yeah; wrong forum. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Bet the flop and win a bigger pot! Link to post Share on other sites
ajs510 122 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Am I the only one that tried to make "OJ is in Solitary Confinement" out of the thread title? Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I did read OJ, but read on and read it as OJ is in the Small Blind and was temporarily baffled. Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtydutch 8 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I wouldn't want to mess with OJ's blind. Link to post Share on other sites
fighter 4 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The flop check was probably a pretty bad idea, imo, and I would guess that a min-3-bet on the turn is worse than both a standard-size 3-bet and a call and river c/r, but I don't play NLH, so for all I know it's not that horrible. But yeah; wrong forum.Raising this hand out of the SB is questionable but not the worse. The flop check is bad. The turn min raise is bad. You didnt lose though so nice hand. Link to post Share on other sites
mrpossum 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 Well partly cause i got scolded for raising QJs but i felt it wouldnt have happened if that guy didnt defend his BTN with 45o Link to post Share on other sites
msals11 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 may i ask who scolded you? we have a strict policy against scolding here... Link to post Share on other sites
dscoot 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 there is nothing wrong with your pf raise. so many young internet kids think there is one perfect play for every specific hand given every scenario, which is so wrong. gotta mix it up .nothing wrong with trapping the flop, its a scarry flop and doesnt look shady at all when a pf raiser checks a 3flush flop, but u can also bet the flop sometimes as a c-bet of your raisethe only real mistake i c would be after they min-raise u on the turn. more often than not, an opponents min raise is the most obvious sign of strength there is. sometimes it is a sign of a strong draw, which case they will have a hard time folding a big H (or set-2pr-strght) and u want them to pay to draw to it, and against some clever opponents, the minraise can be a way to setup a river bluff or to slow you down when they hold a mediocre hand. But the clever opponent is almost always the least llikely scenario, so at this point you should prolly either of these two : (A way more often than B, but mix it up)A) re-pop them to bigger than 1.20, say 2.25-4.25 range (the more wild your image is the bigger you can raise here and get paid, plus you are pf raiser so your most likely hand in their eyes is big overpair with 1 big H)B ) smooth call their reraise, feigning to them you are hoping for another heart, and check the river when no heart comes, letting them bet , at which point you make a raise, either min if they bet huge or 3-5x their bet if they bet smallerI'd only recommend doing option B if you know they are an aggressive better who doesnt mind to keep betting and also seems to value bet alot. Option B works better when they have the straight, or a strong set with no 4card board straight. If they just have 1pr and flush draw or 2mediocre pair, option A should provide more value. Link to post Share on other sites
mrpossum 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 may i ask who scolded you? we have a strict policy against scolding here...Nope its not anyone in the forums. Its the BTN that scolded me. Lol. Link to post Share on other sites
mrpossum 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 there is nothing wrong with your pf raise. so many young internet kids think there is one perfect play for every specific hand given every scenario, which is so wrong. gotta mix it up .nothing wrong with trapping the flop, its a scarry flop and doesnt look shady at all when a pf raiser checks a 3flush flop, but u can also bet the flop sometimes as a c-bet of your raisethe only real mistake i c would be after they min-raise u on the turn. more often than not, an opponents min raise is the most obvious sign of strength there is. sometimes it is a sign of a strong draw, which case they will have a hard time folding a big H (or set-2pr-strght) and u want them to pay to draw to it, and against some clever opponents, the minraise can be a way to setup a river bluff or to slow you down when they hold a mediocre hand. But the clever opponent is almost always the least llikely scenario, so at this point you should prolly either of these two : (A way more often than B, but mix it up)A) re-pop them to bigger than 1.20, say 2.25-4.25 range (the more wild your image is the bigger you can raise here and get paid, plus you are pf raiser so your most likely hand in their eyes is big overpair with 1 big H)B ) smooth call their reraise, feigning to them you are hoping for another heart, and check the river when no heart comes, letting them bet , at which point you make a raise, either min if they bet huge or 3-5x their bet if they bet smallerI'd only recommend doing option B if you know they are an aggressive better who doesnt mind to keep betting and also seems to value bet alot. Option B works better when they have the straight, or a strong set with no 4card board straight. If they just have 1pr and flush draw or 2mediocre pair, option A should provide more value.Basically the min-reraise was a hope of getting more value out of my hand.I figured the villian might just be taking the pot away from me and can hardly call anything bigger than that.On the river it was just for value as it was pretty hard to stack him here.But thanks for the advice. Though i didnt have a very a wild image, but i was opening pretty frequent. Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 You didnt lose though so nice hand.That's like... bad critique :)As people have said, betting the flop would be good, but since that's not been done..You want to raise the turn to a point where your opponent is getting good odds to call off your shove on the river. If you were to 3bet the river to say $2, you would have $3.20 left to shove into a river pot of $4.50. This gives your opponent a similar price to call what he's calling the $2 into $2.90 in this pot, but obviously you're getting more money from him. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Just wondering if you will play it this way.Posting this hand cause i got scolded for raising OOP with QJs so i thought it would be interesting to discuss.Bet the flop and you can get it all in on the river, which is what you want here. The flop check was probably a pretty bad idea, imo, and I would guess that a min-3-bet on the turn is worse than both a standard-size 3-bet and a call and river c/r, but I don't play NLH, so for all I know it's not that horrible. But yeah; wrong forum. Bet the flop and win a bigger pot! Raising this hand out of the SB is questionable but not the worse. The flop check is bad. The turn min raise is bad. You didnt lose though so nice hand. lolmay i ask who scolded you? we have a strict policy against scolding here...OP, turn off your chat when you play.I'm not saying everyone should. But you should. Link to post Share on other sites
AimHigher 0 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I think the main issue with this hand is that you didn't get your stack in by the river. Getting as much money as you can for your big hands is your bread and butter at the low stakes.Preflop - I think if you're raising this hand it should be because you want to play heads up against one of the limpers with a hand you can get 2 or 3 streets of value from if you make a pair. Generally, I'd want one of the two limpers to be very loose-passive post flop before I raise this from the blinds. For raise sizing, I think you should open 4 big blinds + 1 big blind for every limper. This will make the pot larger on the flop making it easier for you to get stacks in, improve your reverse implied odds and marginally reduce their positional advantage because your stack will be slightly smaller in relation to the size of the pot.Flop - At this point in the hand you should be making a plan to get your stack in by the river. If your opponent isn't particularly aggressive (the fact that he limp-called the button is a indication he's probably not) then checking the flop with the intention of check raising is pretty bad. You're going to miss a lot of value from single heart hands that will call but not bet when you check by not betting out here. Hands like 6x, 7x, 2x, straight draws, 55, 44, 33 and hands containing the Ah, Kh, or Qh are all in his range and depending on the opponent may very frequently call a flop bet here.Turn - You can get more value from a flat call than 30 cents on this turn, I'd bet at least $0.40 here. Once he raises I think you need to make your 3-bet larger. This is super important because if you size your turn raise correctly, you can get your stack in on the river without having to overbet the pot or get him to raise. This is a situation where you should be thinking about how big your stack will be and how big the pot will be on the river if you raise a certain amount. I'd make it somewhere in the region of $2.10, leaving us about $3.10 behind to shove into a $4.70 pot on the river.River - I'd have made it $2.50 here, but remember if you set up the river on previous streets you can be shoving the last of your stack in on this river in the hopes of winning a considerably larger pot. Link to post Share on other sites
dscoot 0 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Basically the min-reraise was a hope of getting more value out of my hand.I figured the villian might just be taking the pot away from me and can hardly call anything bigger than that."a hope" of getting more value? NO one hardly ever folds to that min reraise u made there, even with air they might float to see what u do on the river if a H hits. You should be 3betting much larger and "hoping" he calls that. Why would u figure the villain is taking pot away from you? I think the main key is that the most frequent betting tell in all of online poker is the postflop min raise more often means someone has a strong hand. The post flop minraise as a steal is the least likely play, yet u seem to believe that is the most likely situation here. On another note, according to your reasoning of minraising cuz he cant have much, then u bet way too big on river! Link to post Share on other sites
mrpossum 0 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Would my play differ if my stack was any larger ? Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased 0 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Would my play differ if my stack was any larger ?Yes. You'd have to adjust your bet/raise sizing to get the money in by the river.Fwiw, you should be trying to do this in basically all hands you're playing for value. Link to post Share on other sites
mrpossum 0 Posted December 14, 2008 Author Share Posted December 14, 2008 Okay but i would like to ask what happens if we have a heart on the river ?Since we are acting first so what would we do ? Link to post Share on other sites
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