Pocket Rockets In The Bigblind.

[mrpossum 0]

First of all sorry guys i cant convert the hand due to the weird format of the hand history.First of all starting stack sizesSB: 24.55BB: 25.43(Hero)UTG: 17.65UTG+1: 44.60CUTOFF: 40.75BUTTON: 9.50BLINDS 0.10/0.20UTG makes it 0.75 to go.UTG+1 calls.Its folded to the small blind.SB calls.BB(hero) raises it up to 3.75 with AcAd.UTG folds UTG+1 and SB calls.Flop comes 5h 7h 9c.SB checks.Hero pushes for 20.68UTG+1 calls.SB re-raises all in for 20.80UTG+1 calls.Turn comes 9hRiver comes 5sUTG+1 shows Qh8h for flush.SB shows 8c6s for straight.Would you have done otherwise ?

[LJB723 0]

Don't post results.Don't overshove the flop.Post this in the bad beat forum, it's located down the street.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Played it fine.They called way too much money preflop with those hands. Next time you can see if they'll call way, way too much.

[Citizen Erased 0]

Don't overshove the flop.

Why not? Reasons are always fun

[mrpossum 0]

Firstly i am not complaining about the bad beat.I am wondering if i played it badly and is there any other way around it.Anyway the reason i shove the flop is this.- I wanna make it expensive for anyone with 2 hearts to get there.- If i c-bet rougly 2/3 or 3/4 pot i will be left in a weird position if i get called and the turn comes a blank and i will also end up having to shove my entire stack. So rather than letting a card peel off , i commit my stack immediatly.Is there any other way around this ?

[tskillz187 0]

Yes, bet $7.5 on the flop and shove the turn. You want flush draws to call you. You want to try to maximize your EV not maximize how many pots you win. That board isn't scary at all, they should be holding big cards and if you get a call great!

[mrpossum 0]

But i figured that being left with roughly 12-13 dollars on the turn would be quite a weird situation to be in with a pot of about 30 dollars.

[tskillz187 0]

Nope just shove any turn imo. You want the villains to be getting good odds here so that they call with top pair, etc.

[David_Nicoson 1]

- I wanna make it expensive for anyone with 2 hearts to get there.- If i c-bet rougly 2/3 or 3/4 pot i will be left in a weird position if i get called and the turn comes a blank and i will also end up having to shove my entire stack. So rather than letting a card peel off , i commit my stack immediatly.

I think the overbet shove is OK. But I'm more worried about a heart turn being awkward than a brick. I think a brick turn is a straight-forward shove.

[LJB723 0]

Why not? Reasons are always fun

I suppose I'm giving the villains in this hand too much credit. If you have a read and know they will stack off with any 2 hearts, tpnk, or a gs straight draw then shoving is fine. But I think good players aren't calling ~$20 into ~$12 without a hand that beats an overpair.Although I do concede betting $8-10 and being flat called makes the turn awkward to play. A heart is a fold and a blank is a shove. Actually, that didn't sound awkward...

[tskillz187 0]

Folding to a heart turn is LOL.

[Giggidy 0]

I think the overbet shove is OK. But I'm more worried about a heart turn being awkward than a brick. I think a brick turn is a straight-forward shove.

Easier decision < Most profitable playI agree with TSkillz

[mrpossum 0]

But are we folding if a heart peels of on the turn if we bet 8~10 on the flop and just get flat.What if the board pairs ? Are we still shoving ?

[pokerinc 0]

9,8 or 6 of hearts are shitty turns, other than that shove there.The reason not to play it like you did is b/c people know exactly what you have so you've given them complete info and you're just sitting and hoping. That means over time you'll have folded out a8's that would have called you here, or 10 10 -qq even from some weaker players, whereas a normal c-bet commits them to the hand. Playing your cards face up is going to cost you.Obviously there was nothing you could do to avoid the nutso getting it in, why bother asking that, you bet twice the pot and he still called, you can't do more to protect your hand than that.

[mrpossum 0]

9,8 or 6 of hearts are shitty turns, other than that shove there.The reason not to play it like you did is b/c people know exactly what you have so you've given them complete info and you're just sitting and hoping. That means over time you'll have folded out a8's that would have called you here, or 10 10 -qq even from some weaker players, whereas a normal c-bet commits them to the hand. Playing your cards face up is going to cost you.Obviously there was nothing you could do to avoid the nutso getting it in, why bother asking that, you bet twice the pot and he still called, you can't do more to protect your hand than that.

I am asking because i am not sure if there is anything wrong with this play.Anyway how likely is it that people are folding TT-QQ here where the range im shoving can be pretty huge.From a monster draw to an overpair or even a set.

[LJB723 0]

Folding to a heart turn is LOL.

Yes, check/folding a heart turn is bad. But is bet/folding? I mean, what else raises you in that spot? Assuming player is bad to average he will have the flush 100% of the time.Also if we're shoving ANY turn. Then what calls? A lower over pair (to whatever the turn is) is the only thing I think calls that we beat. So essentially we're making AA a bluff, no?

What if the board pairs ? Are we still shoving ?

Yes.

[SmileNTilt 0]

I am asking because i am not sure if there is anything wrong with this play.Anyway how likely is it that people are folding TT-QQ here where the range im shoving can be pretty huge.From a monster draw to an overpair or even a set.

What monster draw could you have, considering you re-raised pre-flop? Do you rellay think that your opponents are going to put you on something like 6h 4h after such a massive 3bet pf? By doing so and then shoving any flop, you have said one thing "I have overpair, most likely Aces". Same with a set - are they really going to put you on pocket 5's or 7's??I would say your shoving range here is very narrow - over pair, maybe, "MAYBE" top set - but most likely a big pocket pair.

[mrpossum 0]

If we are still shoving a heart on the turn then might as well shove the flop and make it expensive for villian to see the heart that they want to see ?Because i would say that i wouldn't mind a flush draw folding and i foresee a lower overpair calling my shove still.Also if i do not shove the flop and get flat by villians whats the range they are likely to be on ?Also if they only likely hood is they are drawing to a flush and i will have to shove the turn why not shove the flop and make them gamble or i take the pot ?

[UncleHoot 0]

In my experience at these low-limit cash games, there are certain players which simpley CANNOT fold a flush draw, period. If you bet the pot, or half the pot, they will come over the top, thinking that you're going to magically fold your pocket Aces (or maybe they don't even think about that).Having lost to these players over and over with top pair, over pair, set, etc., all I can say is that it just happens. Overall, I come out ahead, but sometimes the variance really sucks.I posted a similar question about a year ago. The more you play, the less you worry about these situations. Remember that if he has a flush draw, you WANT him to call a big bet, especially in a cash game. But in the 40% or so of occasions when he wins, it hurts.Edit: Woops, didn't realize he had a straight draw too. He's about 47% to win at this point, and you are 52%. Nobody really did anything wrong on the flop. His mistake was that he called your big raise preflop. If he had something like 8h 9h, it would have been a somewhat better play preflop, and then he would actually be a 3:2 favorite on that flop. But Qh 8h? Yuck. Cheap flops with lots of players, maybe.

[mrpossum 0]

In my experience at these low-limit cash games, there are certain players which simpley CANNOT fold a flush draw, period. If you bet the pot, or half the pot, they will come over the top, thinking that you're going to magically fold your pocket Aces (or maybe they don't even think about that).Having lost to these players over and over with top pair, over pair, set, etc., all I can say is that it just happens. Overall, I come out ahead, but sometimes the variance really sucks.I posted a similar question about a year ago. The more you play, the less you worry about these situations. Remember that if he has a flush draw, you WANT him to call a big bet, especially in a cash game. But in the 40% or so of occasions when he wins, it hurts.

So i suppose that your point here is that there is nothing wrong with overshoving the flop ?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Would you have done otherwise ?

I don't think you played it really "badly."Just depends on table texture and villain. Both villains play PF badly, though. Over time, you're going to take their money.

[UncleHoot 0]

So i suppose that your point here is that there is nothing wrong with overshoving the flop ?

It's not a bad play. I understand the point that was made earlier about betting about $7 into it, too, and in a cash game, I might be more likely to do that. This is all part of game theory. In this situation, since the player was going to go all-in no matter what, there really wasn't much you could do to drive him off (if that was your goal). If you REALLY, REALLY wanted him to fold his draw, shoving may have been your best play, but as stated earlier, you really don't want him to fold here.

[mrpossum 0]

But if the turn falls a blank i will be giving the villian even greater odds to chase his draw which is something i wouldnt want to do. I would want to charge him for his draw if he wants to make his hand. Thats just my reason for shoving.

[pokerinc 0]

So i suppose that your point here is that there is nothing wrong with overshoving the flop ?

His point is stop posting in strat if you don't want to listen.You've been given a fist full of reasons to not overshove, you don't want to listen. Just head back to the tables and stop wasting your, and our time.

[tskillz187 0]

This thread is absurd.