Bottom Set

[shpaget 0]

$60 live tournament.Start with 4000 chips.Blinds are 50/100.I have about 3500 at this point, below average, but still relatively early on.Three people limp, I call with 33 from the button, blinds complete/check. 600 in the pot.Flop is 3s 7s JsSB checks, BB bets 500 (has about 1300 behind) , three folds, I call (3000 behind), SB raises to 1000 (2000 behind) , BB goes all-in, I fold...I'm calling the first bet on the flop, instead of raising, because if either player has a single spade, they're calling my raise on either the flop or the turn...I may as well fade one card rather than two.

[outsider13 0]

I'm never not shoving this spot after the first bet on the flop. What realistically are you hoping for by flatting? Obviously you are hoping to pair the board, but you are also letting Asx or Ksx get there. You set mine, hit your set, now it seems like you are quad mining.You have a ton of outs even if they are already there. If I set mine and hit the set, I'm never folding.

[TrueAce13 18]

I'm never not shoving this spot after the first bet on the flop. What realistically are you hoping for by flatting? Obviously you are hoping to pair the board, but you are also letting Asx or Ksx get there. You set mine, hit your set, now it seems like you are quad mining.You have a ton of outs even if they are already there. If I set mine and hit the set, I'm never folding.

Jeff is smart.

[SGFULTON83 0]

I'm never not shoving this spot after the first bet on the flop. What realistically are you hoping for by flatting? Obviously you are hoping to pair the board, but you are also letting Asx or Ksx get there. You set mine, hit your set, now it seems like you are quad mining.You have a ton of outs even if they are already there. If I set mine and hit the set, I'm never folding.

That pretty much sums it up.

[shpaget 0]

I'm never not shoving this spot after the first bet on the flop. What realistically are you hoping for by flatting? Obviously you are hoping to pair the board, but you are also letting Asx or Ksx get there. You set mine, hit your set, now it seems like you are quad mining.You have a ton of outs even if they are already there. If I set mine and hit the set, I'm never folding.

Once again, these guys are calling with Asx/Ksx, maybe even Qsx whether I push the flop or the turn. Regardless of what lone spade they have, if they have decided that they're going to chase, they're going to call off their chips on either street.Why not make sure the turn's not a spade before pushing? Isn't it a bigger mistake for them to call the turn instead of the flop? Why dodge two cards if you only have to dodge one?Or are you calling their all-ins after the turn if the fourth spade hits anyway?OK, maybe I'm letting a naked 6 of spades get there for free...or a gutshot. btw - If I am behind, I don't have a "ton" of outs. Assuming they didn't hit a bigger set, I have 7 on the turn, 10 on the river. That's less than a flush draw. As played, are you saying after the check/min-raise, and then the push by the original bettor, I should be pushing to chase the paired board? Or do you believe I'm still ahead enough times here. Frankly - in this situation, I don't know if I'm ahead more than 1 in 100 times. Does one guy have AsJc and the other KsJh?As played, what you would do after BB's push if you had AsTh instead of 33?Likewise, what if SB bet out, and BB pushed, are you still re-shoving with bottom set? That's the ultimate question here...how often am I ahead, and how often am I chasing...is it always correct to go all-in if I know I'm behind?

[outsider13 0]

As played, what you would do after BB's push if you had AsTh instead of 33?

I'd fold. You don't have a made hand anymore, so there's little chance that you are currently ahead with that action and have to hit to win.

That's the ultimate question here...how often am I ahead, and how often am I chasing...is it always correct to go all-in if I know I'm behind?

You're ahead more often than you think here. If you have a read that you are behind and don't want to take a chance, no harm in folding if the structure of the tournament allowed you to sit back and wait for better hands than this one. I would never fold.

[UncleHoot 0]

Even in bad-case scenario, you would still have pot-odds to call here. Certainly, in a worst case, where one of them has pocket 7's or J's, you're screwed, but I think we can reasonably rule out JJ most of the time, since there was no raise preflop.I would envision hands like the following:SB: 6s Ts (any made flush)BB: As Jd (or Ks Jd, maybe even Qs Jd, or AsX, etc...)Against which, you would be 30% to win the hand, against 2 other opponents. Early in a tournament, those are the odds that I'd be looking for to build a nice stack, especially with chips already invested in the pot.But I'm a low-stakes player where players are a lot dumber. In a low stakes turbo game, my opponents would have 8c8d and Jd4s. LOL

[shpaget 0]

I'd fold. You don't have a made hand anymore, so there's little chance that you are currently ahead with that action and have to hit to win.You're ahead more often than you think here. If you have a read that you are behind and don't want to take a chance, no harm in folding if the structure of the tournament allowed you to sit back and wait for better hands than this one. I would never fold.

That's where I'm trying to find my balance. I tend to assume the worst (or best) in these situations and have a hard time concluding that at least one of the players doesn't have me beat. Especially when the BB 3-bets against 2 players, one being a check/raiser.Yeah, it's read dependent, and I'm more comfortable getting such a read in a live game than an Internet game.In the end, I looked for a lot of reasons to continue after the all-in, and couldn't justify it. Basically, I concluded that the number of times I'm ahead vs the number of times I'm behind, combined with the number of outs, I figured it was marginal at best, and I could wait.

[ben4808 0]

Well, in my opinion, maybe you can make an argument for folding considering the action behind you on the flop, even though you still have a good bit of equity.However, there's just too many people still in the hand on the flop to be just calling off 500 chips in hopes that the fourth spade doesn't hit. You should take a stand and either make a hefty raise or shove. This should discourage the nut draws from calling, and even if they do, you're still quite a ways ahead. If someone already has the flush and shoves behind you, its a snap-call because you already have so much invested and you still have outs.No tough decision and no regrets. That's how I like to keep it.

[XXEddie 0]

I'm calling the first bet on the flop, instead of raising, because if either player has a single spade, they're calling my raise on either the flop or the turn...I may as well fade one card rather than two.

Yeah....good point. If you go allin and they called. You're only gonna be a 3-1 favorite, why would we want that. Everything you have said just makes my head want to asplode.

[TrueAce13 18]

Jeff has destroyed this thread. I really think you are thinking too much into this hand. Ship and move on, if your up against a higher set than your SOL, but if your against a flush, you still are drawing live....sooooo is there really a question here

[SlackerInc 0]

Well, in my opinion, maybe you can make an argument for folding considering the action behind you on the flop, even though you still have a good bit of equity.However, there's just too many people still in the hand on the flop to be just calling off 500 chips in hopes that the fourth spade doesn't hit. You should take a stand and either make a hefty raise or shove. This should discourage the nut draws from calling, and even if they do, you're still quite a ways ahead. If someone already has the flush and shoves behind you, its a snap-call because you already have so much invested and you still have outs.No tough decision and no regrets. That's how I like to keep it.

QFT. I would shove here; but if you want to take the position that "a set is a trap hand OOP in a multiway pot and a three-suited flop" then fine, but just fold to the first bet.

[pokerinc 0]

these are two guys who are shorstacked early in a donkament. They're prob. not good and looking for anything they can to shove and double or quit. Your line is rough b/c you remove all your fold equity against the naked ace of spades, you allow the bb to dictate the price he wants to pay for the next card and he's never check folding that turn to you so you may as well push him out/commit him on the flop. And anticipating check folding on a spade turn is just depressing to think about.

[KoRnholio 2]

If all the players were 100BB deep maybe you can fold given the action. Around 30 BBs deep? Never folding.

[Mercury69 3]

Shove the flop and make a boat...

[MovingIn 0]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 2,709 games 0.001 secs 2,709,000 games/secBoard: 3s 7s JsDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 22.370% 22.37% 00.00% 606 0.00 { AsQh }Hand 1: 42.082% 42.08% 00.00% 1140 0.00 { KsTs }Hand 2: 35.548% 35.55% 00.00% 963 0.00 { 33 }

In a donkament like this, I shove every time even if I know both are calling, one has the nut draw and one has the flush. And that outside of a very unlikely higher set is the worst case scenario. Even if we don't have equity, we need a triple up pretty badly to get in a competitive chip position and this is probably our best shot.