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Playing a 4/8 live game, and I've put in the straddle.Ten players. Probably 7 of them don't have a clue and aren't paying attention. They call with way too many hands, and a preflop raise won't deter them from playing what they have decided to play. Most wouldn't know if someone had straddled or put in an UTG raise...and wouldn't care. Half wouldn't even notice the raise...they'd put in $4, and then have to be told the bet is $8. These guys will raise on the river with two pair, into three players, on a board with four hearts. Preflop raises are rare...half the guys at the table won't raise with AA, convinced that it just means they'll lose more money. I'm making about 7 big bets per hour in this session to this point.I straddle...two players call. Cutoff raises, button caps. The big blind calls.Being 99% certain the other two will call, am I calling with any two here? Or is there still a range of hands I fold?

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why are you straddling to begin with?
Does it really matter?Mix things up.Boredom.Make a big pot....get in for $8 (most times) and be getting 5:1 minimum...see what happens.Just won a big pot and felt like "playing my rush".The voices in my head told me to.My horoscope.Doesn't really matter...what's done is done....now what's the correct way to deal with the action?
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The action in the hand doesn't match your description of the players in the game. I think you need to reconcile that before you decide if you want to continue in the hand.I think I would want a suited-connector hand in this spot.
Not sure what I need to reconcile.Two guys called the straddle, and in all likelihood would have called if I had raised outright, rather than blind - there's a good chance that at least one of them didn't even know it was a straddle. The only thing out of order was the raise/reraise which was the second or third time it had happened all night. The big blind calling doesn't surprise me...he probably saw A7 and decided he was gonna play it, no matter what. The small blind folding is actually more surprising than anything.The two guys who originally called my straddle are definitely going to call after me because that's what they do. They like their two cards and no one's gonna change their mind. I don't have any doubts that the two raisers have big hands.The issue is, I'm getting at least 9:1 to call, and in all likelihood 11:1.What's my range?
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Why you are straddling probably does matter. If you are trying to loosen up the game or build a big pot--you should call things are going according to plan.If you suddenly care about hand strength and odds--you are getting 11:1 (assuming two more callers). This is not any ATC price. You can call with a wide range, however you will be out of position relative to the aggressive players in the hand. Assuming they have premium hands (would make sense based on the info presented) you need a hand that can flop bigger than two pair to continue.

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Why you are straddling probably does matter. If you are trying to loosen up the game or build a big pot--you should call things are going according to plan.If you suddenly care about hand strength and odds--you are getting 11:1 (assuming two more callers). This is not any ATC price. You can call with a wide range, however you will be out of position relative to the aggressive players in the hand. Assuming they have premium hands (would make sense based on the info presented) you need a hand that can flop bigger than two pair to continue.
OK - building the pot was my goal...the raise and reraise is where things didn't go according to plan. A common occurrence at this table to an early position raise was to see 5 or 6 callers. "Rare" might have been a strong word...you might see one pf raise every 5 hands.More common was to see 5 to 7 players in an unraised pot.So, raised, or unraised, it didn't seem to impact the number of players that saw a flop. Even the handful of times where there was a reraise, or rereraise, the other players, even for three more bets, were more likely to call than fold.Thanks for the input on the range of hands.
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straddling is -ev, and not just slightly so. unless you are tossing money around for fun there is never a reason to do it.
Maybe I'll quit while I'm ahead.I don't do it often, (maybe 5 times in the last 100 times I've been UTG) but in the times I have done it it has been profitable....likely short term luck. In the particular games I do it, you get guys that will call with a random hand, so against them you're really not bad off, except for your position. And you get other guys who aren't smart enough to realize they're good against your random hand and they either fold, or fail to raise.Also, they say once in a while you need to make a really bad or crazy call/bet to mix up your image (for those who are paying attention)...I'd put an occasional straddle in the same category...depending on the table.
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Don't straddle anymore, unless like the whole table is doing it. I don't feel like discussing this, so don't bother attempting to justify it. If you fail to see that it's -EV in the short term, long term, and any other term, you are probably too stubborn to learn from these forums anyway.Getting this price, your range is pretty close to any 2.I'm calling all connectors, all suited cards, most one-gappers, obv any pair, any A, and a ton of other trash. Close to any 2. If the players in the hand are for the most part bad, calling with any 2 can't be too big of a mistake.Gargoyle, I understand your thinking, but you're far too tight in this spot. If you're folding a hand like 78o or 94s here, you're making a mistake.

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Don't straddle anymore, unless like the whole table is doing it. I don't feel like discussing this, so don't bother attempting to justify it. If you fail to see that it's -EV in the short term, long term, and any other term, you are probably too stubborn to learn from these forums anyway.
Who died and made you poker god?If I didn't think I could learn from here I wouldn't have posted the question.FYI - I didn't suggest straddling was +EV short term, or any term. I clearly stated that my success with straddling is likely a product of short term luck - my sample size is simply too small to use it as a bellweather for the expected profitability of straddling. There is no denying that my net earnings from straddling are on the black side of the income statement. But past profit is not +EV.But, if you're not even willing to entertain why it MIGHT be a positive experience, in the right circumstances, you might want to explore your own standards about stubborness, or are you only here to teach, as you have nothing to learn?I'd say on most levels I know it shouldn't be done, unless, like you said, everyone is doing it, and the <5% of the time I do it is more for variety and fooling around than anything. I remember Brunson saying he believes in rushes, and if he wins a big pot, he'll play any two cards the next hand. I look at the occasional straddle along the same mentality. It's not sound or reasonable....it just is what it is. (and yes, I understand there are other reasons to play ATC the next hand after winning a big pot...namely, because your opponents tend to believe in rushes, even if you don't).Regardless, my original post was not about the straddle, but what to do after the fact, and I thank you for your input.For the record, I found 63o, and I called.
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I have examined the idea of straddling as well as nearly everything in the game of limit hold em. It is very clearly -EV. It takes no real analysis to see that. That Brunson quote might well be his worst memorable quote on record. I'm pretty sure he has publicly amended his thoughts on the subject, but I really don't care enough to cite that so take it fwiw. Very smart people say very dumb things all the time, and while this isn't completely without merit, the idea is far too much of a blanket statement and is very easily misinterpreted. I learn every day from people on this forum. Just not on the clearly -EV practice of straddling. I in no way consider myself to be a "poker god," but if you continue to justify/defend the practice of something you admit is incorrect, you learn nothing from the thread and nothing constructive is ever explored. The idea that it could be a "positive experience" is fine. If you're just looking to have fun and splash a bit, go for it. But it is not positive in the realm of making you money. The game you described needs absolutely no extra action. Just play ABC poker and take the money.Your positive results in doing so are absolutely short term variance. There is no "probably" about it. If you hadn't done so, you wouldn't be stuck in this spot, putting in 4 bets in a bad position vs. very strong ranges. You will lose in the long term by doing this. There. I discussed it.In general, if everyone who responds tells you that something is incorrect, don't continue to justify it. Accept the advice, attempt to understand why it was given, and move on.

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I have examined the idea of straddling as well as nearly everything in the game of limit hold em. It is very clearly -EV. It takes no real analysis to see that. That Brunson quote might well be his worst memorable quote on record. I'm pretty sure he has publicly amended his thoughts on the subject, but I really don't care enough to cite that so take it fwiw. Very smart people say very dumb things all the time, and while this isn't completely without merit, the idea is far too much of a blanket statement and is very easily misinterpreted. I learn every day from people on this forum. Just not on the clearly -EV practice of straddling. I in no way consider myself to be a "poker god," but if you continue to justify/defend the practice of something you admit is incorrect, you learn nothing from the thread and nothing constructive is ever explored. The idea that it could be a "positive experience" is fine. If you're just looking to have fun and splash a bit, go for it. But it is not positive in the realm of making you money. The game you described needs absolutely no extra action. Just play ABC poker and take the money.Your positive results in doing so are absolutely short term variance. There is no "probably" about it. If you hadn't done so, you wouldn't be stuck in this spot, putting in 4 bets in a bad position vs. very strong ranges. You will lose in the long term by doing this. There. I discussed it.In general, if everyone who responds tells you that something is incorrect, don't continue to justify it. Accept the advice, attempt to understand why it was given, and move on.
Well put. :club: I am kind of new to playing LHE, but wouldn't you have a smaller range of hands the looser the table is?
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I have examined the idea of straddling as well as nearly everything in the game of limit hold em. It is very clearly -EV. It takes no real analysis to see that. That Brunson quote might well be his worst memorable quote on record. I'm pretty sure he has publicly amended his thoughts on the subject, but I really don't care enough to cite that so take it fwiw. Very smart people say very dumb things all the time, and while this isn't completely without merit, the idea is far too much of a blanket statement and is very easily misinterpreted. I learn every day from people on this forum. Just not on the clearly -EV practice of straddling. I in no way consider myself to be a "poker god," but if you continue to justify/defend the practice of something you admit is incorrect, you learn nothing from the thread and nothing constructive is ever explored. The idea that it could be a "positive experience" is fine. If you're just looking to have fun and splash a bit, go for it. But it is not positive in the realm of making you money. The game you described needs absolutely no extra action. Just play ABC poker and take the money.Your positive results in doing so are absolutely short term variance. There is no "probably" about it. If you hadn't done so, you wouldn't be stuck in this spot, putting in 4 bets in a bad position vs. very strong ranges. You will lose in the long term by doing this. There. I discussed it.In general, if everyone who responds tells you that something is incorrect, don't continue to justify it. Accept the advice, attempt to understand why it was given, and move on.
You might also want to consider the very first statement I made on the matter after getting some input on it..."Maybe I'll quit while I'm ahead."That alone should tell you my thoughts, and how I truly reacted to the feedback I got about straddling.As far as my expression of thoughts afterwards - there is a large difference between explanation and justification.There is a large difference between explaining why I did what I did, IN THE PAST, and rationalizing why I should do it again, in the future.One I did...the other I did not.If I do it in the future, it will be for the same reasons I drive 80 in a 60 zone, or bring my wife flowers on a Wednesday, or chug a beer....simply because.
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You might also want to consider the very first statement I made on the matter after getting some input on it..."Maybe I'll quit while I'm ahead."That alone should tell you my thoughts, and how I truly reacted to the feedback I got about straddling.As far as my expression of thoughts afterwards - there is a large difference between explanation and justification.There is a large difference between explaining why I did what I did, IN THE PAST, and rationalizing why I should do it again, in the future.One I did...the other I did not.If I do it in the future, it will be for the same reasons I drive 80 in a 60 zone, or bring my wife flowers on a Wednesday, or chug a beer....simply because.
i am always baffled by people who ask for advice, get advice, and then don't like said advice so they get defensive (often by attacking the people who gave them advice).you asked a question and got an answer. in fact a damn good poker player took time out of his day here to give you a very good answer. you not only dismissed him, you insulted him. why even ask for advice if you are going to behave like this?
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i am always baffled by people who ask for advice, get advice, and then don't like said advice so they get defensive (often by attacking the people who gave them advice).you asked a question and got an answer. in fact a damn good poker player took time out of his day here to give you a very good answer. you not only dismissed him, you insulted him. why even ask for advice if you are going to behave like this?
aha - now we get to the crux of the matter. And the main reason I left these boards once before.The whiff of elitism, with the board godfather on the prowl, and his sycophants in tow. If I don't sit back and say "thank you sir, can I have another", I am being insulting and dismissive. It's very simple...my question wasn't about the straddle. I opened the barn door and the horse got out...don't give me advice about the barn door, I already know about that part.It's even simpler...the attack on me and the claim that I must be too stubborn to learn from these boards was both uncalled for, and unnecessary. It was purely unfounded, and was simply about establishing superiority, not about providing feedback. My response was hardly an insult. It was a legitimate reaction to an unprovoked attack...and in light of the slight, I still found it in my little heart to thank him for his input....that was also legitimate and genuine.I took the unsolicited advice, from all posters, about the straddle in stride, and even VERY CLEARLY stated that in light of those posts, I should probably quit doing it.Even after that, your godfather felt it necessary to give me his little lecture. It was inappropriate. But you won't see that.
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i am always baffled by people who ask for advice, get advice, and then don't like said advice so they get defensive (often by attacking the people who gave them advice).you asked a question and got an answer. in fact a damn good poker player took time out of his day here to give you a very good answer. you not only dismissed him, you insulted him. why even ask for advice if you are going to behave like this?
I'm baffled by people who don't understand what the original question was. What was asked was. "Being 99% certain the other two will call, am I calling with any two here? Or is there still a range of hands I fold?"He didn't ask, "should I have straddled?" "What do you think of my play?" He's already conceded that it might not be the most +EV, but he doesn't care about that.All you want to do is show that you are "a damn good poker player." And you might be, but people have to learn to read.
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Sigh. This thread is full of misreads. First of all, I am one of the least "elitist" players or posters you'll meet. I do not care about having people think I'm a good player. Really, I don't. I have no sycophants and if I did, Anti would not be one. We have had limited interaction and simply have a mutual respect for one another's thought processes and expressions of such. I did not make an attack. I did not want to discuss the idea of straddling in the way that we have and that was the reason for my original post. Getting into a discussion like the one we are taking part in is a pure waste of intellectual energy. I did not insult you and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I attempted to cut off such a mess and I answered the question that you asked. However, if I make a poor decision, post a hand, and ask for input on a completely different decision, you'd better believe I want someone to point out that separate mistake. Do not get defensive when people do that. It helps you. Stubbornness, inflateted ego, and over-sensitivity have no place at a poker table or in a place of learning.If you continue to post here, I will continue to do my best to assist you in learning and I would expect and appreciate the same from you. I contribute as much as people are willing to accept in these forums. I take more of an interest in assisting others than 99% of people who post and am almost never involved in this drama. Your read of me is pretty far off. Good luck to you.Blazer- I appreciate your input here on what you perceive to be a problem, but I think you too are making a misread. Anti was not saying that he was a "damn good poker player." Although he probably is, he has never shown the least bit of arrogance for as long as I have seen him post and proclaiming something like that is not really in character for him. Also, you are correct about the original question, but to say that he "doesn't care" that something else he did in the hand was -EV is just silly. This is a place of learning. That's what it was meant to be and that's what we try to keep it as. If we notice a mistake, it is only beneficial to the OP that we point it out. His original question was answered and every bit of constructive criticism that we saw fit to provide was posted. That is not something to be upset over. Be thankful that we have so many excellent posters who are willing to contribute their time and energy to improve the community as a whole.

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Sigh. This thread is full of misreads. First of all, I am one of the least "elitist" players or posters you'll meet. I do not care about having people think I'm a good player. Really, I don't. I have no sycophants and if I did, Anti would not be one. We have had limited interaction and simply have a mutual respect for one another's thought processes and expressions of such. I did not make an attack. I did not want to discuss the idea of straddling in the way that we have and that was the reason for my original post. Getting into a discussion like the one we are taking part in is a pure waste of intellectual energy. I did not insult you and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I attempted to cut off such a mess and I answered the question that you asked. However, if I make a poor decision, post a hand, and ask for input on a completely different decision, you'd better believe I want someone to point out that separate mistake. Do not get defensive when people do that. It helps you. Stubbornness, inflateted ego, and over-sensitivity have no place at a poker table or in a place of learning.If you continue to post here, I will continue to do my best to assist you in learning and I would expect and appreciate the same from you. I contribute as much as people are willing to accept in these forums. I take more of an interest in assisting others than 99% of people who post and am almost never involved in this drama. Your read of me is pretty far off. Good luck to you.
Understood, and I do thank you for your input.And if I do straddle in the future, it won't be because I think it's a good idea. :club:
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Can I throw some fuel on the fire? :icon_biggrin:I think one reason the straddle got talked about is that it's in the title and somewhat key to the situation that we find ourself in. You asked a general (non-specific) question about the situation. Therefore, while you got specific answers to your question, you also got bonus critique on the situation. If it was boredom that makes you want to straddle, that's fine. I think they wanted to point out that the justifications you were attempting to make weren't legit. Straddling can sometimes be beneficial for image purposes, but in a game like this where no one's paying attention, there's really no point.

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Can I throw some fuel on the fire? :icon_biggrin:I think one reason the straddle got talked about is that it's in the title and somewhat key to the situation that we find ourself in. You asked a general (non-specific) question about the situation. Therefore, while you got specific answers to your question, you also got bonus critique on the situation. If it was boredom that makes you want to straddle, that's fine. I think they wanted to point out that the justifications you were attempting to make weren't legit. Straddling can sometimes be beneficial for image purposes, but in a game like this where no one's paying attention, there's really no point.
100% accurate
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Sigh. This thread is full of misreads. First of all, I am one of the least "elitist" players or posters you'll meet. I do not care about having people think I'm a good player. Really, I don't. I have no sycophants and if I did, Anti would not be one. We have had limited interaction and simply have a mutual respect for one another's thought processes and expressions of such.
If at some time in the future you decide to take on sycophants, make a thread and I'll send you a PM.
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