chris moneymaker and greg raymer: where do they rank

[Socko669 0]

I don't here much about the WSOP winners of the last two years...it doesnt seem as if they have really had a lot of tournament success following their winning the big one. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do these guys play a lot of cash games? And who thinks another no name will win the big one this year? Pokerstars.com alone has given away almost 600 seats to the WSOP...

[HelioCentric 0]

Rank: http://www.cardplayer.com/player_of_the_year/Neither of them are on this list. For what it is worth.

[LiquidKaos 0]

They ARE rank.The end.Cheers,LK

[AC BillP 0]

I'm just not a fan of Moneymaker. But as an East Coast player I feel Raymer is way misunderstood. He was a winning ring player for years at the $50 to $200-$400 level with a solid but overagressive style of play. I have an unknown good pro-player friend in AC who is ranked 80th or so in tourny winnings by the Hendon Mob, who played with him regularly and felt his being in the game "was no big bargin" . Basically given my friends ranking and what I know to be his cash game winnings, I feel that it's actually a compliment to say that Raymer is in the top 100-- just not the top 30 when it comes to all-around play. Gee there are 100's of thousands of players just in the US.Part of all around play is keeping what you already won--something very few of the top 30 guys are able to do. Remember Raymer has.

[hotdog da 2rd 0]

I don't here much about the WSOP winners of the last two years...it doesnt seem as if they have really had a lot of tournament success following their winning the big one. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do these guys play a lot of cash games? And who thinks another no name will win the big one this year? Pokerstars.com alone has given away almost 600 seats to the WSOP...

greg raymer can play competitive high stakes, as high as 400-800. moneymaker, well....... :whistle:

[Nimbletoe 0]

At least neither of them claim to be near the top. Both have been really humble about their wins, and both get constantly made fun of on poker message boards, which is pretty sad. But, I guess since they're millionaires (or were, who knows now), and we aren't, they couldn't really give two shits if you think they're in the top thousand poker players in the world. I know I certainly wouldn't.The entire reason pro's are able to make so much money in poker is because guys like Raymer and Moneymaker that come in with much less experience than the competition and win millions. I really don't understand the poking fun at all. Sure, maybe if they claimed they were the greatest players around or something, poke away.

[john kane 0]

i did have respect for raymer until i saw his play in the british open final and the wsop single table tournament of champions - he just cant resist all in preflop. this would only be a correct strategy if he thought his flop play was weaker than his opponents. and the times he chooses to go all in sometimes are laughably bad.

[Nimbletoe 0]

i did have respect for raymer until i saw his play in the british open final and the wsop single table tournament of champions - he just cant resist all in preflop. this would only be a correct strategy if he thought his flop play was weaker than his opponents. and the times he chooses to go all in sometimes are laughably bad.

If you're talking about the ToC table that Annie Duke ended up winning, i'm sure he thought he could play post flop better than Phil Ivey, Doyle, DN, etc etc... or not. Actually, Lederer and Duke were both going all in a ton to avoid playing post flop, because they knew they were outclassed. They got 3rd and 1st, respectivley.I didn't see the British Open final table, so I can't comment on it. But his aggression has worked for him, and I think I heard he got 2nd place at it.

[badass 0]

In response to AC Bill:I played with Raymer in Monaco for the EPT grand final, as did 5 or 6 friends that came. I spent 3-4 hrs. chatting with him and others at the Hermitage there on the final day also. He seemed like a know-it-all, that knew less than I did, and I have been playing for 1 1/2 years!! He was very arrogant, and REALLY liked to talk about himself, and could hardly get a word in otherwise.I spoke to a few friends while in Monte Carlo that have played him at the Bellagio on several occasions. I am told he pis$ed away near a 3rd of his winnings from the wsop playing high-stakes cash games with some ACTUAL pros that were there. (No names thrown out here)All in all, I find him to be a poor player, as well as a poor excuse for a human. Daniel is a true poker player - not Raymer. Daniel also has class, and respect for others, which what's his name lacks. Pro players are consistant, amatuers can always get lucky......once.

[AC BillP 0]

Badass- Thanks for the update on Raymer. Having played with him only once I was relying a bit on my friends impression of the guy. First my thought is there is no accounting for how being a "big" famous champion can go to the head of some people. Sadly this seems to be the case.Next: the overaggression and arrogance you noted (as did I) is rewarded a bit more in the average $200-$400 7stud east coast game than it is out in Vegas were they play higher and generally mixed games. I'm reminded of Phil Ivey's story of how this terrible 7stud player ("the Toymaker") beat him everyweekend for 6 months at $200 and $300 stud at the Taj and Phil had to drop back down and play $50 and $75-$150 all week just to fillup for the next weekend with the guy.Finally: I am supprised he was so unknowedgeable technically. After several years at higher limits you'd think he'd learn something, if only to shut-up!

[Jelly-Filled Ace 2]

In response to AC Bill:I played with Raymer in Monaco for the EPT grand final, as did 5 or 6 friends that came. I spent 3-4 hrs. chatting with him and others at the Hermitage there on the final day also. He seemed like a know-it-all, that knew less than I did, and I have been playing for 1 1/2 years!! He was very arrogant, and REALLY liked to talk about himself, and could hardly get a word in otherwise.I spoke to a few friends while in Monte Carlo that have played him at the Bellagio on several occasions. I am told he pis$ed away near a 3rd of his winnings from the wsop playing high-stakes cash games with some ACTUAL pros that were there. (No names thrown out here)All in all, I find him to be a poor player, as well as a poor excuse for a human. Daniel is a true poker player - not Raymer. Daniel also has class, and respect for others, which what's his name lacks. Pro players are consistant, amatuers can always get lucky......once.

huh?

[guacamole 0]

I think it is hard to believe that Raymer is in the top 100. That is mostly because there are so many excellent poker players out there. There are all the top tournament players in the POTY race, and then there are countless top cash players who nobody has ever heard of (in both US and Europe). Still, it is hard to knock a guy who wins at 200-400. He must still be an excellent player, better than 99% of those who make fun of him, but unlikely in the top 100.I get the feeling that Money isn't quite in Raymer's class, but I could be wrong. His book was a lot of fun to read though.

[Guest]

Its not like this was raymers first time ever going or anything, he played in the wsop for 3 years, 2005 will be his 4th, and its not like he needed the money or anything, he was a patent attorney, he made a crap load of money to begin with. He's been killing 200 - 400 games for a long time, granted he may talk alot, and thinks he knows what hes talking about, but, he did win, didnt he?

[MikeR 0]

Moneymaker is like one of the great degenerate gamblers of old. Only he doesn't make a lot of money doing it.Raymer's a student of the game, who should improve a lot after getting a lot of high stakes money tournaments under his belt via Pokerstars fronting his entry fees.

[AceyDeucy 0]

The Bay 101 shooting stars, second season. He also cashed in an Omaha event last yer. In most of the other stuff both have done they have gotten thrashed (be Poker Royale, ToC, PSII, etc.). Of course in Moneymaker's book he discusses how extensively he has had to change his play since the WSOP, and given that Raymer, stylistically, is sort of Moneymaker's Mini-Me (same thing but more psychotic) I would expect he experienced the same.Neither one is a "top pro" but neither one is any kind of fish, either. Both have the rolls and the endorsement money to pay for the lessons to become serious players, though, provided their ego doesn't short-circuit their brains.

[Bravado2112 0]

Greg Raymer Stonington, CT[ Results | Stats | Gallery ] 18-Apr-05 $ 25,000 Main Event (WPT) - No Limit Hold'em ChampionshipThird Annual Five-Star World Poker Classic, Las Vegas 33rd $ 47,180 05-Jan-05 $ 7,800 WPT Main Event - No Limit Hold'em2005 PokerStars Caribbean Adventure, Paradise Island 32nd $ 13,000 01-Sep-04 No Limit Hold'em - Tournament of ChampionsWorld Series of Poker Tournament of Champions, Las Vegas 5th 06-Aug-04 € 5,710 Episode 1The Gaming Club World Poker Championship (Pot Limit Hold'em), Dublin 4th 22-May-04 $ 10,000 World Championship Event35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 1st $ 5,000,000 09-Nov-02 $ 2,000 No Limit Hold'em2002 World Poker Finals, Mashantucket 9th $ 3,700 27-Oct-02 $ 300 No Limit Hold'em2002 World Poker Finals, Mashantucket 3rd $ 12,654 22-Apr-01 $ 1,500 Omaha Hi-Lo Split Eight or Better32nd World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2001, Las Vegas 12th $ 5,345

[Bravado2112 0]

Chris Moneymaker [ Results | Stats ] 28-Sep-04 $ 6,000 No Limit Hold'em Final Day2004 Ultimatebet.com Poker Classic, Palm Beach 18th $ 13,000 03-Sep-04 € 5,710 Episode 5The Gaming Club World Poker Championship (Pot Limit Hold'em), Dublin 10th 03-Aug-04 $ 300 Pot Limit Hold'emThe Fourth Annual Jack Binion Mid-America Poker Classic, Tunica 3rd $ 10,239 19-May-04 $ 5,000 Pot Limit Omaha35th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2004, Las Vegas 10th $ 21,000 03-Mar-04 $ 5,000 WPT No Limit Hold'em Championship Final Day2004 - Bay 101 Shooting Star, San Jose 2nd $ 200,000 19-May-03 $ 10,000 World Championship Event34th World Series of Poker (WSOP) 2003, Las Vegas 1st $ 2,500,000

[MikeR 0]

Daniel also has class, and respect for others

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAThe same guy who made comments so rude that Howard "Always Calm" Lederer said he would no longer acknowledge Daniel's existance unless he was trying to bust him at a table, accused top pros of cheating, including Doyle Brunson (Danny Boy later said he didn't really mean it), and insinuates 1st tier players are liars?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHADanny's an entertaining guy, I guess what I'm saying is don't judge a guy's skills by his "classy behavior". Just look at Hellmuth.