New Rule

[BeaverStyle 1]

Situation: Person A has a set on a coordinated board and just pushed all in on the river. Person B has Person A covered. He is thinking for a while. 3 minutes go by, and Person B hasn't called yet. He finally calls, showing broadway, the nuts. I don't care who you are, if the closing action is on you, and someone has bet all their chips, and you hold the nuts... you may take up to 5 seconds to call this bet. If you don't, you're a piece of shit for deceiving your opponent where there is zero gain in doing so.But it's fun to do online.. lol..

[James D 0]

If you go out of your way to slowroll someone, for no reason... you're a dick. And probably have very few social skills, and friends.The over analysis in this thread is funny.

[gatortom64 1]

[Money022 0]

okay, but why is that "wrong". Isn't your goal to win the guy's money, and isn't that easier if he's tilted?

I don't think you can go as far as saying it's "wrong", but it's a dick move when done intentionally. It never hurts to try and get into somebody's head and throw them off their game, but you shouldn't do it by making a person think they've won a hand then stopping them just short of scooping the pot and saying, "Oh my mistake, I have the nuts, you lose."There's a level of respect I feel you should have for your opponents at the poker table and it's disrespectful move.How would you like it if you went in for a physical and the doctor said, "Well BigDMcGee everything looks good." And you say, "Really doc?!". "No son, you're going to die in a week. Please try to pay your bill before then." Not cool man, not cool.

[tuckermitchell 1]

How would you like it if you went in for a physical and the doctor said, "Well BigDMcGee everything looks good." And you say, "Really doc?!". "No son, you're going to die in a week. Please try to pay your bill before then." Not cool man, not cool.

I know this would never happen. If somehow it did though, and even though the person telling me about it would be very near death, would I be a terrible person for laughing my ass off. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to stop myself.

[DCJ001 0]

okay, but why is that "wrong". Isn't your goal to win the guy's money, and isn't that easier if he's tilted?

Some people get tilted from slow rolls?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNAMX3UXklo

[Ship_itt 0]

Situation: Person A has a set on a coordinated board and just pushed all in on the river. Person B has Person A covered. He is thinking for a while. 3 minutes go by, and Person B hasn't called yet. He finally calls, showing broadway, the nuts. I don't care who you are, if the closing action is on you, and someone has bet all their chips, and you hold the nuts... you may take up to 5 seconds to call this bet. If you don't, you're a piece of shit for deceiving your opponent where there is zero gain in doing so.But it's fun to do online.. lol..

agreed. and bigdmcgee is a complete douche for even trying to rationalize this with some kind of strategy in poker to tilt your opponents. You are a scum and complete idiot if you believe that. grow up sir

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I don't think you can go as far as saying it's "wrong", but it's a dick move when done intentionally. It never hurts to try and get into somebody's head and throw them off their game, but you shouldn't do it by making a person think they've won a hand then stopping them just short of scooping the pot and saying, "Oh my mistake, I have the nuts, you lose."

Yes, we've established it's a dick move. But, you say it never hurts to get them off their game, but then you say you shouldn't do it by making a person think they've won... And again, nothing you've said makes me believe that you "should not" other than it's not nice. Neither is showing a bluff. What is the difference?

There's a level of respect I feel you should have for your opponents at the poker table and it's disrespectful move.How would you like it if you went in for a physical and the doctor said, "Well BigDMcGee everything looks good." And you say, "Really doc?!". "No son, you're going to die in a week. Please try to pay your bill before then." Not cool man, not cool.

The difference, is obviously, that a doctor gains no strategic advantage by slow rolling your diagnosis.

agreed. and bigdmcgee is a complete douche for even trying to rationalize this with some kind of strategy in poker to tilt your opponents. You are a scum and complete idiot if you believe that. grow up sir

Yes, I'm a complete douche for trying to look at an issue logically instead of emotionally and with blind acceptance of conventional wisdom. My bad. Also, calling me a douche, a scum and a complete idiot.. and then telling me to grow up, was that intentionally ironic? Just curious.

[Dirtydutch 8]

DRAMA! :D :qh :icon_clap: :icon_clap:

[BaseJester 1]

Yes, we've established it's a dick move. But, you say it never hurts to get them off their game, but then you say you shouldn't do it by making a person think they've won... And again, nothing you've said makes me believe that you "should not" other than it's not nice. Neither is showing a bluff. What is the difference?

I don't think you're going to find a more compelling reason not to slow-roll than because it's mean.From a selfish perspective, slow-rolling is going to slow the game down. If your win rate is positive or even if you just want to play some hands, that's bad.Also, if everybody hates you, it's going to be harder to get rulings in your favor.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I don't think you're going to find a more compelling reason not to slow-roll than because it's mean.From a selfish perspective, slow-rolling is going to slow the game down. If your win rate is positive or even if you just want to play some hands, that's bad.Also, if everybody hates you, it's going to be harder to get rulings in your favor.

Yeah, for me, the strongest agruements I can come up with against it are...1) It's better for everyone to like you than everyone hating you, you can get benefits you don't expect and don't look for by being nice to people in the game, that you wouldn't get if you were the biggest dick in town.2) It's better to have, in general, a friendly, jovial, "social gambling" atmosphere in a live game, and if you start slow rolling people, it can drive people from the game. And I think that's pretty valid, for live games ( particularly ones with a low and consistent regular playing pool, rather than like at the Commercial, or a tourist laden vegas game.The thing is, slow rolling online, I really don't see the down side. There might be little upside, as it may be unlikely to tilt someone, but it has no downside that I can see, and seems like a free roll.. it's worth a shot to tilt someone.

[profxavier9 0]

it depends on the exact situation but like DN's hand the guy took his sweet time calling an allin with Aces is gross just because it adds a whole level of, o man if he is taking this long I must be good, and then get blindsided when he turns over the nuts.online it is tough because a lot of times people aren't paying attention to what is going on.

I think i remember DN did that to david williams in a wpt event. i wouldnt say he took his sweet ass time. Im not quite sure exactly what your talking about, because i haven't seen it. but maybe a little karma coming back DN's way?

[Vtlaxer09 4]

bigd.. i guess i see what you did in this thread... but it was pretty retarded and in the end very pointless and meaningless. slowrolling annoys the **** out of people.. wtf more is there to talk about?

[profxavier9 0]

I mean, it isn't against the rules obviously. You have the right to do it. It's just an unwritten ethical rule that you don't do it.

Don't you know that big d is a bad ass rebel, were talkin james dean. he's one bad kat.

[Largetotals 0]

bigd.. i guess i see what you did in this thread... but it was pretty retarded and in the end very pointless and meaningless. slowrolling annoys the **** out of people.. wtf more is there to talk about?

not to mention it violates the code of ethics in poker.. I don't see why people are arguing the issue. It pisses people off.. its rude AND its frowned upon universally by pros AND average joes alike..Sure, you don't get shot for it anymore but your still considered a true asshat and shunned for it if you do it a bunch..just because you don't agree with the ethics behind it, doesn't make it ok to do it. I don't think its right that I have to pee in a bathroom when at the park.. doesn't mean I piss in the bushes instead of walking the half block..

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

bigd.. i guess i see what you did in this thread... but it was pretty retarded and in the end very pointless and meaningless. slowrolling annoys the **** out of people.. wtf more is there to talk about?

Well, for me, there is more to talk about, as in " is annoying the **** out of people a +EV play, and is it worth the negative image you will create for yourself by doing it". Sorry I tried to make your thread about something more than being a churched up bad beat thread.

Don't you know that big d is a bad ass rebel, were talkin james dean. he's one bad kat.

Badder than old king kong. Meaner than a junkyard dog.

[profxavier9 0]

If you go out of your way to slowroll someone, for no reason... you're a dick. And probably have very few social skills, and friends.The over analysis in this thread is funny.

ahhhh its the american dream my friend. "its my right"

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

not to mention it violates the code of ethics in poker.. I don't see why people are arguing the issue. It pisses people off.. its rude AND its frowned upon universally by pros AND average joes alike..Sure, you don't get shot for it anymore but your still considered a true asshat and shunned for it if you do it a bunch..

i'm arguing it because I think that blindly accepting conventional wisdom without thinking about the issue logically is foolish. I'm bringing it up more as an intellectual exercise, and challenging people to give me reasons not to slow roll beyond "it's not nice". Further more ,I think that poker players, in general, get far, far too upset about being slow rolled. Basically, I think people just want an excuse to get angry about losing a pot. They know that they aren't "supposed" to get mad about losing a pot, that results in the short term don't mean anything, blah blah and blah... but really, their emotions just really wanted to get pissed, and they want something to blame, so they latch onto the slow roll. When really, who the fck cares? You're not going to lose any more money if you get slow rolled, but you could lose more money if you let getting slow rolled tilt you. People get disproportionately upset about it, is what I'm saying.

I don't think its right that I have to pee in a bathroom when at the park.. doesn't mean I piss in the bushes instead of walking the half block..

Well, I guess that's where you and I differ, friend.

[BaseJester 1]

Further more ,I think that poker players, in general, get far, far too upset about being slow rolled. Basically, I think people just want an excuse to lose a pot. They know that they aren't "supposed" to get mad about losing a pot, that results in the short term don't mean anything, blah blah and blah... but really, their emotions just really wanted to get pissed, and they want something to blame, so they latch onto the slow roll. When really, who the fck cares? You're not going to lose any more money if you get slow rolled, but you could lose more money if you let getting slow rolled tilt you. People get disproportionately upset about it, is what I'm saying.

Very insightful, imho.Does anybody get mad about the reverse slowroll? E.g.,"You called with that? How could that be good?" . . . [Folds] "That beats me."

[profxavier9 0]

I think it might still be possible to get shot for slow rolling, the wrong guy on the wrong day. when he has a massive hand, and its for his rent money. not sure how thrill'd you'd be to see him in the parking lot.Ive played in some rooms run by the local moffioso's and people have gotten smacked around for less. But anyone to attempt something so stupid in a private game with no type of security around whatsoever is and idiot and asking for it like

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I think it might still be possible to get shot for slow rolling, the wrong guy on the wrong day. when he has a massive hand, and its for his rent money. not sure how thrill'd you'd be to see him in the parking lot.Ive played in some rooms run by the local moffioso's and people have gotten smacked around for less. But anyone to attempt something so stupid in a private game with no type of security around whatsoever is and idiot and asking for it like

Oh yes, being anything but a perfect gentleman in a club run by the mob is definitely -EV. I've also watched that video of the tampa rays fan no less that 20 times, and it never gets old. I mean.. it's philly man. PHILLY. I wouldn't even dare to wear an opposing team's hat in philly, and I'd keep my jubilantion to myself if my team did things like score and win. Momma didn't raise no fool. They pelted Santa with snow balls, and he gave them presents when they were kids.. what the hell would they do to me?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Also, one thing I'd like someone to answer me, and no one has even bothered to, even though I've brought it up a couple times..How is slow rolling substantively (and morally) different than showing a bluff? When you show a bluff, it's done to make them angry, right? To tilt them? To "get in their head"? It shows people up, makes them embarrassed and pissed. You don't have to show a bluff to win a pot, everyone's folded, you can just toss your hand in face down and collect your money, you don't have to show someone up by showing you bluff. So why is showing a bluff acceptable behavior, but slow rolling not? Why are you an a-hole for slow rolling, but not for showing bluffs? Yes, I know that there's a "tactic" behind showing a bluff, to make players think you're an habitual bluffer, to get you more action later. But in order to get that action later, you shame, anger and may well tilt someone. Food for thought.

[vbnautilus 48]

Also, one thing I'd like someone to answer me, and no one has even bothered to, even though I've brought it up a couple times..How is slow rolling substantively (and morally) different than showing a bluff? When you show a bluff, it's done to make them angry, right? To tilt them? To "get in their head"? It shows people up, makes them embarrassed and pissed. You don't have to show a bluff to win a pot, everyone's folded, you can just toss your hand in face down and collect your money, you don't have to show someone up by showing you bluff. So why is showing a bluff acceptable behavior, but slow rolling not? Why are you an a-hole for slow rolling, but not for showing bluffs? Yes, I know that there's a "tactic" behind showing a bluff, to make players think you're an habitual bluffer, to get you more action later. But in order to get that action later, you shame, anger and may well tilt someone. Food for thought.

You kind of answered your own question there. The difference is there is no tactical reason to slow-roll, it is purely an attempt to play with your opponent's emotions. I would venture that most of the time it is not even a calculated attempt to throw off their emotions and thus influence their game, that most of the time it is nothing but schadenfreude. To answer the more general question, most of us would prefer to not to play in a game where "anything goes" as long as it serves someone's self-interest. It's probably true of most domains in life that there are things you can do which gain you something but at the long-term expense of everyone else. I know it seems like poker is a situation where that is part of the game, but that's probably why its even more important for us to be aware of the limits of the game, and how far we are willing to go to win some money. It's really just a matter of character. By the way, I think it's a totally suitable issue to bring up for discussion and I don't really understand the opposition to doing so.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

You kind of answered your own question there. The difference is there is no tactical reason to slow-roll, it is purely an attempt to play with your opponent's emotions. I would venture that most of the time it is not even a calculated attempt to throw off their emotions and thus influence their game, that most of the time it is nothing but schadenfreude.

Yeah, but I don't necessarily agree that there is no tactical reason to slow-roll. I think I've explained that enough, though, so I won't go over it again. I just see little difference, is all. There are also old timers that think check raising is rude, impolite and unethical (and I've played in public games were it wasn't allowed for this very reason) and most of us would think they are loons, but they believe it ardently. It all seems arbitrary to me.

To answer the more general question, most of us would prefer to not to play in a game where "anything goes" as long as it serves someone's self-interest. It's probably true of most domains in life that there are things you can do which gain you something but at the long-term expense of everyone else. I know it seems like poker is a situation where that is part of the game, but that's probably why its even more important for us to be aware of the limits of the game, and how far we are willing to go to win some money. It's really just a matter of character.

While I think this is true, I also think that people who are willing to let "anything go" are always going to have an edge over people who are not willing, in that specific game ( skill level being equal, obv). Maybe not in life, but in that game.

By the way, I think it's a totally suitable issue to bring up for discussion and I don't really understand the opposition to doing so.

I understand it completely. It's "obvious" that slow rolling is bad, 'cause I mean it's the "lowest, most classless thing you can do" and everyone hates getting it done to them... end of fcking story. People like to feel, they don't like to think, and even talking about things like this hypothetically and theoretically pisses them of. *shrugs" Even though I've said I'm playing Devil's advocate several times, some people treat me like I'm the personification of every person that's slow rolled them in life, and attack me personally for daring to even bring the subject up. Which I think is funny.

[vbnautilus 48]

Yeah, but I don't necessarily agree that there is no tactical reason to slow-roll. I think I've explained that enough, though, so I won't go over it again. I just see little difference, is all. There are also old timers that think check raising is rude, impolite and unethical (and I've played in public games were it wasn't allowed for this very reason) and most of us would think they are loons, but they believe it ardently. It all seems arbitrary to me.

Yeah I know there may be a way to use it tactically, I just don't think that's usually the intention, which is part of why people find it offensive. I never understood the check/raising issue since that seems so squarely within the rules of the game to me.