Massachusetts Ballot Initiative

[copernicus 0]

FYP .... is that better cope?Also, while I disagree with much of what you think about drugs, I respect the fact that you have a solid base from which to pull your ideals. It sounded at the beginning that you never took a drug, or at the very most had a few bad experiences. But I guess you had some good times, but choose to think differently.

I still disagree...jazz/reggae and rock may have been different but not necessarily better.My attitude toward drugs is formulated from real life "Needle and the Damage Done" experiences, (though not heroin, psychedlics and mother nature). I was a college dropout and basically lived from crash pad to crash pad for 3 years while I dealt acid and gambled for food money. That lifestyle also exposed me to some very nasty people (passports, drivers licenses, guns, any substance you could name etc.) I have little doubt that the previously mentioned Kent State/Army experiences are responsible for my living past 1975. Ironically one of the purposes of the trip that had me at Kent State at the time was to pick up more of that same brown acid in Chicago, where it was being made. 69/70 were very heavy years lol.Hunter S Thompson might have written the most powerful words about those days:"THERE WAS MADNESS IN ANY DIRECTION, AT ANY HOUR... YOU COULD STRIKE SPARKS ANYWHERE. THERE WAS A FANTASTIC UNIVERSAL SENSE THAT WHATEVER WE WERE DOING WAS RIGHT, THAT WE WERE WINNING. AND THAT, I THINK, WAS THE HANDLE -- THAT SENSE OF INEVITABLE VICTORY OVER THE FORCES OF OLD AND EVIL. NOT IN ANY MEAN OR MILITARY SENSE; WE DIDN'T NEED THAT. OUR ENERGY WOULD SIMPLY prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave... So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high water mark -- that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."The exception that proves my rule on drug fueled creativity lol.

[vbnautilus 48]

My attitude toward drugs is formulated from real life "Needle and the Damage Done" experiences, (though not heroin, psychedlics and mother nature). I was a college dropout and basically lived from crash pad to crash pad for 3 years while I dealt acid and gambled for food money. That lifestyle also exposed me to some very nasty people (passports, drivers licenses, guns, any substance you could name etc.)

It's unfortunate that your experiences with psychoactive substances were so strongly associated with that negative lifestyle. In many cultures they are associated with the most sacred times of life and are taken in rituals supported by the community. That's a totally different context, one we are deprived of. The fact that they are illegal really messes with our experience of them.

[Nimue1995 1]

I still disagree...jazz/reggae and rock may have been different but not necessarily better.My attitude toward drugs is formulated from real life "Needle and the Damage Done" experiences, (though not heroin, psychedlics and mother nature). I was a college dropout and basically lived from crash pad to crash pad for 3 years while I dealt acid and gambled for food money. That lifestyle also exposed me to some very nasty people (passports, drivers licenses, guns, any substance you could name etc.) I have little doubt that the previously mentioned Kent State/Army experiences are responsible for my living past 1975. Ironically one of the purposes of the trip that had me at Kent State at the time was to pick up more of that same brown acid in Chicago, where it was being made. 69/70 were very heavy years lol.Hunter S Thompson might have written the most powerful words about those days:"THERE WAS MADNESS IN ANY DIRECTION, AT ANY HOUR... YOU COULD STRIKE SPARKS ANYWHERE. THERE WAS A FANTASTIC UNIVERSAL SENSE THAT WHATEVER WE WERE DOING WAS RIGHT, THAT WE WERE WINNING. AND THAT, I THINK, WAS THE HANDLE -- THAT SENSE OF INEVITABLE VICTORY OVER THE FORCES OF OLD AND EVIL. NOT IN ANY MEAN OR MILITARY SENSE; WE DIDN'T NEED THAT. OUR ENERGY WOULD SIMPLY prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave... So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look west, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high water mark -- that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."The exception that proves my rule on drug fueled creativity lol.

How old are you Cope? I was in high school during the Woodstock-Kent State era. So guess I'm a bit younger than you. I always thought that we were close to the same age (at least from your posts, you gave me that impression)

[copernicus 0]

It's unfortunate that your experiences with psychoactive substances were so strongly associated with that negative lifestyle. In many cultures they are associated with the most sacred times of life and are taken in rituals supported by the community. That's a totally different context, one we are deprived of. The fact that they are illegal really messes with our experience of them.

The legality doesnt really change it much, other than cost. In fact in many ways a low level dealer is better off with the current state of affairs. Minimal risk of jail time and profits/hour hard to find in the legit world!And of course we arent talking about the impact of drugs on other cultures, just ours, and the appropriate legal response to it.

[Sheiky 0]

How old are you Cope? I was in high school during the Woodstock-Kent State era. So guess I'm a bit younger than you. I always thought that we were close to the same age (at least from your posts, you gave me that impression)

I'm pretty sure Mother Teresa is younger than Cop!

[Nimue1995 1]

I'm pretty sure Mother Teresa is younger than Cop!

Thanks Sheiky,lol. My kids already say I'm older than dirt.

[copernicus 0]

I'm pretty sure Mother Teresa is younger than Cop!

And lousy in bed too. Ill be e^4.0943 next week.

[Nimue1995 1]

And lousy in bed too. Ill be e^4.0943 next week.

Huh? I have enough trouble with math at the poker table,lol.

[vbnautilus 48]

The legality doesnt really change it much, other than cost. In fact in many ways a low level dealer is better off with the current state of affairs. Minimal risk of jail time and profits/hour hard to find in the legit world!And of course we arent talking about the impact of drugs on other cultures, just ours, and the appropriate legal response to it.

I'm not talking about the impact of drugs on cultures, I'm talking about the impact of culture on drug experiences. Part of the reason drugs produce negative experiences in our culture is because the culture views them as vice. In a culture where a psychoactive plant is treated as a sacred substance you have an entirely different experience available to you. Imagine if your parents and grandparents introduced you to peyote at a certain age and all the other people in the community helped you through your experience. It's something we can't really imagine because for us it has always been treated as a fringe/illegal/problem thing. The impact of it being illegal goes far beyond cost. You have been through the looking glass enough to know the importance of set and setting. Just think of setting more broadly as incorporating the larger cultural context in which your experience is happening. This is an aspect of our culture which I think it would be beneficial for us to change. The legal situation is not jut a response to the drug; there is a feedback loop -- the way we treat these drugs impacts how they are used.

[dapokerbum 0]

And lousy in bed too. Ill be e^4.0943 next week.

60 huh? Just gettin started ... right?

[copernicus 0]

60 huh? Just gettin started ... right?

whats that Dennis Hopper ad say? 60s are the new middle age? (Or was it 50s and Im getting desperate?)

[copernicus 0]

I'm not talking about the impact of drugs on cultures, I'm talking about the impact of culture on drug experiences. Part of the reason drugs produce negative experiences in our culture is because the culture views them as vice. In a culture where a psychoactive plant is treated as a sacred substance you have an entirely different experience available to you. Imagine if your parents and grandparents introduced you to peyote at a certain age and all the other people in the community helped you through your experience. It's something we can't really imagine because for us it has always been treated as a fringe/illegal/problem thing. The impact of it being illegal goes far beyond cost. You have been through the looking glass enough to know the importance of set and setting. Just think of setting more broadly as incorporating the larger cultural context in which your experience is happening. This is an aspect of our culture which I think it would be beneficial for us to change. The legal situation is not jut a response to the drug; there is a feedback loop -- the way we treat these drugs impacts how they are used.

Yes, I know thats what YOU were talking about. Nobody else was though. And dont forget golden showers were in vogue because the shaman's urine was so potent and the pee-ons [sic] only source.Now if I could just figure out that tower of power kink.

[strategy 4]

Minimal risk of jail time and profits/hour hard to find in the legit world!

freakonomics much?

[copernicus 0]

freakonomics much?

like the doo-dah man

[strategy 4]

like the doo-dah man

idk what this means, but yeah being a low-level drug dealer is an awful way to make a living no matter how you look at it. college town dealers might be the only exception, but even that's kinda shitty from what I've seen.

[copernicus 0]

idk what this means, but yeah being a low-level drug dealer is an awful way to make a living no matter how you look at it. college town dealers might be the only exception, but even that's kinda shitty from what I've seen.

ydk what that means? I must have mistaken the identity of your avatar then.

[vbnautilus 48]

ydk what that means? I must have mistaken the identity of your avatar then.

you see yourself everywhere, eh?

[copernicus 0]

you see yourself everywhere, eh?

?? splain please, lucy

[vbnautilus 48]

?? splain please, lucy

Such confusion in this thread. I thought your doo-dah man was a grateful dead reference and you were seeing jerry garcia in his avatar.

[timwakefield 68]

The point you make about Marjuana being more availible in high school's is A) Wrong, and B) doesn't prove anything.

FWIW he said Junior High, which is a big difference. I can only speak from personal experience, but I did not drink or smoke pot in Junior High. However, I was offered pot a few times in junior high (not in a peer-pressure way, but in a friendly, I-can-get-you-pot way). In High School I did smoke pot, and it was far far easier than getting alcohol. Need pot? Ask that guy in math class and take a trip to his car after school. Need alcohol? Damn, I guess go hang out outside a liquor store and hope a friendly-looking 20-something will help you out.

[timwakefield 68]

Which says nothing about the change that might have been seen without the war on drugs. Talk to residents of Amsterdam about how great legalization is for that city.

I don't think that's a fair example, because Amsterdam is the only major European city that allows marijuana and mushroom use, so it attracts druggies from all over Europe, and all over the world even. The whole country has those laws, but Amsterdam is the only major city in Holland. If a nation the size of ours legalized pot, there would be no central place where all the worst people in the continent would descend. Also, I am not suggesting we do that.

Responsible for the bad acid or for the warning? Im not sure what the distinction is, however, it wasnt BAD.

If I read it correctly, he was sarcastically suggesting that you may have been a republican narco who dosed everybody with bad shit because you hate hippies .

[timwakefield 68]

There would be no jazz without heroin

I think this might be at least a little facetious, but it's an interesting question. I focused on the jazz part of your statement because that's what I listen to, but also because jazz is such a unique kind of music, and has more to do with history and is more tied to history than any other music. I don't know enough about the history of heroin use in this country to really talk about it, since I dunno when it entered jazz. I'm guessing it was the 40s with Charlie Parker and those guys. It's interesting to look at a guy like Charlie Parker and ask would he have been as great without heroin? He almost certainly would have lived longer (34), but would he have been brilliant, or merely great without it? On the other hand, what if attributing his talent partially to heroin is entirely backwards? What if heroin prevented him from playing to his full potential? Seems unlikely in his specific situation, but only because his playing was so often, for lack of a better term, completely perfect and entirely new. How could it have been better if he was clean?A counter-example might be Coltrane, who got clean very early (before he became a leader), and who took his music to incredible new places while completely drug and alcohol free. Any thoughts on the specific link between heroin and creativity? I mean heroin is known for knocking you the fuck out, but Charlie Parker was famous for playing beautifully even when he was high as hell. I remember a story about him at a recording date in the studio and being really high - they started playing and he played the intro and all and then somebody else took a solo and he sat down and basically nodded out. The author of the story was either a musician at the date or a producer, and he recalled thinking along the lines of 'Well in 4 bars we're gonna have to start over because Charlie is fucking out,' then perfectly on cue for his solo Parker stood up, played a brilliant solo, and sat back down and nodded out. I dunno if you listen to much jazz, but if you haven't ever seen tape of Charlie Parker playing, it's really great. I'm not saying he's high or anything here - but his style of staying almost perfectly still makes the notes coming out of his sax seem all the more....what's a good word? - transcendent. This is the best I could find on youtube. It seems some of the other stuff "lip synching" over recordings. Anyways this is pretty excellent, and if anybody takes the time to watch this but is kinda bored or whatever - 0:40-0:46 is really all you need to see. Wow I typed a lot.

[vbnautilus 48]

If I read it correctly, he was sarcastically suggesting that you may have been a republican narco who dosed everybody with bad shit because you hate hippies .

Naw I was just wondering if he actually provided the acid, or just was the guy who let the announcer know that there was some crazy stuff going around.

Any thoughts on the specific link between heroin and creativity? I mean heroin is known for knocking you the fuck out, but Charlie Parker was famous for playing beautifully even when he was high as hell.

I've never done heroin so I can't say from experience... and I don't know that it has a general effect on creativity per se, but do I think something about the mix between heroin and music leads to a certain something in the style of it, if that makes any sense. I guess I'm saying it has an aesthetic influence. I think throwing heroin into the mix in the 40s/50s really influenced the direction jazz was going.

[strategy 4]

ydk what that means? I must have mistaken the identity of your avatar then.

I don't have avatars turned on and my gf occasionally switches mine up. sorry, lol. it could literally be a picture of GWB with a heart around it for all I know.

[copernicus 0]

Such confusion in this thread. I thought your doo-dah man was a grateful dead reference and you were seeing jerry garcia in his avatar.

ahhhh...half right, actually Phil Lesh wears a very similar jersey in one of their posters