RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Not if we have universal, single-payer healthcare.I don't get it. Link to post Share on other sites
dapokerbum 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The effect of almost every psychoactive drug is self-delusion. You would have found that "new light" without it.This is something i have thought about a lot. Now there has to be some thing is your brain that gets switched on when you take drugs. Is there a way to turn this switch without the help of drugs. IMO there isn't, but say there is. Then what do you do. Can you tell people that they can't go to that state of mind? Or do you educate them about those effects? And would you outlaw all the teachers that would be teaching people how to reach this state of mind? Oh yeah, how many drugs have you taken in your life cope? It seems like you had a bad acid trip in high school or something. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I can assume many of the laws we have on drugs are related to when in the 1800's and turn of the century so many people were addicted to the then legal opiates.100 years later, billions of dollars later, at a huge loss of civil liberties and at the cost of destruction of entire neighborhoods, addiction rates are: IDENTICAL to before the Insane War on Drugs.Yep, that's some good policy there. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The effect of almost every psychoactive drug is self-delusion. You would have found that 'new light'; without it.Scientists studying the effects of magic mushroom find the opposite. The magic mushroom effect is real, even in controlled studies -- people have real, lasting psychological breakthroughs during magic mushroom trips. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Scientists studying the effects of magic mushroom find the opposite. The magic mushroom effect is real, even in controlled studies -- people have real, lasting psychological breakthroughs during magic mushroom trips.Carlos Castendes fan? Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 100 years later, billions of dollars later, at a huge loss of civil liberties and at the cost of destruction of entire neighborhoods, addiction rates are: IDENTICAL to before the Insane War on Drugs.Yep, that's some good policy there.On par with the war on poverty but noone wants to quit that Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 On par with the war on poverty but noone wants to quit thatNo one?At any rate, justifying the existence of a wasteful program that has no positive gains and lots of negatives based on the existence of other, similarly bad programs doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 No one?At any rate, justifying the existence of a wasteful program that has no positive gains and lots of negatives based on the existence of other, similarly bad programs doesn't make a whole lot of sense.How about protecting the health of our country? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 This is something i have thought about a lot. Now there has to be some thing is your brain that gets switched on when you take drugs. Is there a way to turn this switch without the help of drugs. IMO there isn't, but say there is. Then what do you do. Can you tell people that they can't go to that state of mind? Or do you educate them about those effects? And would you outlaw all the teachers that would be teaching people how to reach this state of mind? Oh yeah, how many drugs have you taken in your life cope? It seems like you had a bad acid trip in high school or something.The answer is a qualified yes... most drugs interact with endogenous systems in the brain that can be accessed in other ways. For many drugs, however, it's quite difficult to achieve the level of effect that the drug produces without pharmaceutical intervention. For example, ecstasy stimulates the release of serotonin, which is normally released when you do various things that make your mood elevate...but pretty much no one is going to get the kind of serotonin dump they get with ecstasy just by riding a bike or whatever. There are other ways of directly affecting brain function too, like transcranial magnetic stimulation, that may eventually be used to alter one's state of mind intentionally. Your point is a good one that essentially the government is trying to regulate which states of mind we visit. Link to post Share on other sites
x Swift x 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Honestly just legalise it, sell it in shops, tax it heavily and solve the countries debt problems with the extra money Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 How about protecting the health of our country?You must have missed the statistic: the 100 years and billions spent has produced NO CHANGE -- that's zero -- in drug usage.If your business ordered more supplies for a million dollars, and they shipped zero balloons and zero tanks of compressed air, would you say the expense was necessary to keep the supply of balloons strong?A program that does nothing is not protecting the health of the country, while the damage caused by the IWoD is well documented. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Carlos Castendes fan?It's goofs like Castaneda that have given these things a misunderstood reputation. There is actually now some real science on the issue. Anyone interested in this topic should check out the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies which has been funding some decent science on psychedelics. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Honestly just legalise it, sell it in shops, tax it heavily and solve the countries debt problems with the extra money Cocaine would be more expensive and therefore solve all our financial problems quicker.Of course Crack is better if you want to ensure repeat business Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 You must have missed the statistic: the 100 years and billions spent has produced NO CHANGE -- that's zero -- in drug usage.If your business ordered more supplies for a million dollars, and they shipped zero balloons and zero tanks of compressed air, would you say the expense was necessary to keep the supply of balloons strong?A program that does nothing is not protecting the health of the country, while the damage caused by the IWoD is well documented.That's not quantifiable, what would the make up of our country be without strict enforcement of drug laws?No way to know.I'd rather gamble on a drug free America than a drugs for free AmericaAnd yes, I know that we haven't stopped the drugs because they fund our black ops in south america and Arkansas Govenor's election campaigns Link to post Share on other sites
x Swift x 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Cocaine would be more expensive and therefore solve all our financial problems quicker.Of course Crack is better if you want to ensure repeat businessWell the effects are substantially worse, Cannabis is actually ranked with alcohol and smoking for long term effects though only limited studies have been done. Also if its legal in shops it would stop illegal dealing and the money going to terrorism. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 That's not quantifiable, what would the make up of our country be without strict enforcement of drug laws?No way to know.I'd rather gamble on a drug free America than a drugs for free AmericaAnd yes, I know that we haven't stopped the drugs because they fund our black ops in south america and Arkansas Govenor's election campaignsSee the thing is we don't outlaw "drugs". We have outlawed certain drugs and not others. Alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, salvia, etc. are all legal, while marijuana, LSD, psilocybin, cocaine, heroine, methamphetamine are not. I don't necessarily think all drugs should have the same legal status, but the decisions should be made on some rational basis. Currently the laws have no rational basis. The marijuana laws are based on the government's problems with Mexicans back in the 30s, not based on any science or knowledge we have about its effects or safety. Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 That's not quantifiable, what would the make up of our country be without strict enforcement of drug laws?No way to know.Really? We can't measure it? All you do is figure out how many people were using it BEFORE drug laws, and how many AFTER drug laws. If the answer is the same, then drug laws make no difference.Also, if your theory is that drug laws reduce use, you'd have to explain HOW this is accomplished. Marijuana is more available in junior high schools than alcohol. One is legal, one is not. In that, we have a very simple real-world experiment on the effect of drug laws on availability. The answer is always the same, no matter which way you look at it. There is a good psychological reason for that. People who would use illegal drugs have a particular psychological/biochemical makeup. People who NEED the drug get it with or without laws. People who don't need the drug don't use it, with or without drugs laws. All the drug laws do is increase the suffering, and do not change availability or demand.You're a free market guy. Supply = demand. The government cannot override that, now or ever. So the question is not whether the govt can wave their special government magic wand and make drugs and drug use go away, the question is to how to minimize the harm to non-users. The IWoD is the opposite of a good solution. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeepster80125 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 why's it impossible?To tax marijuana? What happens to the guy growing a plant at home? Or the mexican cartels using our southern national forests? What's your plan for taxing it like alcohol and cigs? What agency would oversee this? The FDA?Brutal....I think that marijuana and alcohol both have their good and bad side. We could save money as a country my not criminalizing it. I agree with what someone said about how when you find out you were lied to and weed wasn't the embodiment of evil, then hey maybe these other drugs aren't either.I am just not sold on why we need our government to butt into our lives in this way? Educate us, but don't limit us. I can assume many of the laws we have on drugs are related to when in the 1800's and turn of the century so many people were addicted to the then legal opiates. Well, if people were adequately educated I think that sort of thing would be minimized. Then again, people are pretty darn stupid. And so we come full circle to why we have these laws.This is really, really stupid. I hope you didn't think before you posted this.The government makes huge sums of money keeping marijuana and other drugs illegal.EDIT: I guess it depends on who you ask. debate time? Link to post Share on other sites
x Swift x 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Thats a good point if cannabis was legal and sold in shops an age regstriction could be put in place, currently you can get weed at any age but if you want alcohol you have to get an adult to buy it for you. Link to post Share on other sites
RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Minimize the potential harm to users through education and open dialog....Is the amount of users who use drugs literally the same, or the same after you factor in population growth? Link to post Share on other sites
hblask 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Thats a good point if cannabis was legal and sold in shops an age regstriction could be put in place, currently you can get weed at any age but if you want alcohol you have to get an adult to buy it for you.Not only that, the criminal element would be removed. There would be no incentive to hire a disreputable Mexican mob boss to deliver your product if a legal version were available at a fraction of the price.I can't believe this isn't obvious. We did this exact same experiment with prohibition of alcohol, with the exact same results: no change in usage, increase in danger of the usage does exist, increase in corruption in law enforcement, increase in organized crime.Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. Link to post Share on other sites
RealMagnetic 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The government makes huge sums of money keeping marijuana and other drugs illegal.How do you factor in things like court costs, policemen wasting time arresting dealers, or the effect on our country of imprisoning dealers?Maybe you're right and we wouldn't save money, but we sure as hell would save time and stop wasting our efforts on stupid stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
Nimue1995 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Not only that, the criminal element would be removed. There would be no incentive to hire a disreputable Mexican mob boss to deliver your product if a legal version were available at a fraction of the price.I can't believe this isn't obvious. We did this exact same experiment with prohibition of alcohol, with the exact same results: no change in usage, increase in danger of the usage does exist, increase in corruption in law enforcement, increase in organized crime.Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.How many people who buy it if it were legal vs the number of people who would grow it instead? Probably would equate to the number of people who brew their own beer as opposed to the number that go buy a 6 pack at the local grocery store. Most people would choose the legal way over the illegal way anyway. There's still bootleg alcohol available too but it's not near the criminal problem that it was before alcohol was legal. Personally, I'd choose not to use but that's because my husband has lung problems. Link to post Share on other sites
x Swift x 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 How many people who buy it if it were legal vs the number of people who would grow it instead? Probably would equate to the number of people who brew their own beer as opposed to the number that go buy a 6 pack at the local grocery store. Most people would choose the legal way over the illegal way anyway. There's still bootleg alcohol available too but it's not near the criminal problem that it was before alcohol was legal. Personally, I'd choose not to use but that's because my husband has lung problems.No one is making them smoke it just as no one makes people smoke cigs. At least if it was legal you could tax it and implement sensible smoking laws to prevent second hand effects, and stop wasting police time on arresting a guy with a spliff when he could be raiding crack dens or something. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Well the effects are substantially worse, Cannabis is actually ranked with alcohol and smoking for long term effects though only limited studies have been done. Also if its legal in shops it would stop illegal dealing and the money going to terrorism.So pot is bad for you, but we want to legalize it because alcohol and cigarettes are also bad for you? Link to post Share on other sites
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