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Deep In A $5.50 Nlhe Tourney


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Villian seems pretty TAG, not played much and when he does standard raises and continuations. Only showing down good hands.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.50 Tournament, 600/1200 Blinds 125 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB (t26210)UTG (t7534)UTG+1 (t25755)MP1 (t22065)MP2 (t26022)MP3 (t14620)Hero (CO) (t19221)Button (t44238)SB (t37545)Hero's M: 6.57Preflop: Hero is CO with Qdiamond.gif, Qheart.gif5 folds, Hero raises to t4800, 2 folds, BB raises to t26085 (All-In), Hero ??? Snap-call?

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Snap-call, no second thoughts. BBFIDTS
Snap Call, with your stack bein that low. Accept the cooler if he shows up with KK or AA and move on.
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With a 6.57 M, I just ship this with my initial action, show the QQ if everyone folds, and use that to set up later shoves with various more vulnerable hands (77, T9s, A8s, etc.). I know some of you think in terms of BBs and will say it's not shoving territory yet, but this is a prime example of why the antes, and adjusting M for them, matter. As played, you have to call and hope for the best.

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With a 6.57 M, I just ship this with my initial action, show the QQ if everyone folds, and use that to set up later shoves with various more vulnerable hands (77, T9s, A8s, etc.). I know some of you think in terms of BBs and will say it's not shoving territory yet, but this is a prime example of why the antes, and adjusting M for them, matter. As played, you have to call and hope for the best.
Please dont do this. Make it 2.5x and entice people to resteal wide. If hero was more EP shoving would be a little more acceptable(esp with a pair like 88-TT, still wouldnt do it with JJ+). However shoving QQ for 15bbs in LATE POSITION is just throwing value away
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The raise was fine, maybe go for 3x next time but we got what we wanted someone to move in and only 2 hands beat us. Open shoving takes out the small blind who might decide to call the initial raise at a discount which takes money out of the pot. With a hand like QQ we aren't too worried about having 3 people in the hand over 2 are we?

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A shove is great when you want a fold now. With QQ we want action, and from the CO we'll probably get it from a wide range.Maybe BB, being solid, only shoves here with AA-KK or AK, but he's short as well, we did open from the CO, he may have a hand and he may believe we're stealing. I can see this move with AA-JJ, as well as AK-AJ, maybe even smaller pairs, KQs or ATs. If he's truly solid, I doubt he does this with ATC but I sense a loose range.Given OP's tone, however, I bet he called and villain tabled AA or KK.

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Please dont do this. Make it 2.5x and entice people to resteal wide. If hero was more EP shoving would be a little more acceptable(esp with a pair like 88-TT, still wouldnt do it with JJ+). However shoving QQ for 15bbs in LATE POSITION is just throwing value away
Why oh why do you guys insist on parsing everything in terms of bbs without dealing with M (that is, the effect of antes)? The situation here is like having just under 10bbs with no antes. And when my M is hovering just above the Red Zone as it is here, I'm shoving most any hand I want to play. Exceptions would be limping in EP with AA or maybe KK if there are aggressive players still to act, and the occasional completion of the SB with some speculative hands if the BB is reasonably passive.Sure, you might be able to squeeze a little more value out of premium hands like this if you take your line. But I think I get more value overall because I shove the QQ and then show it if no one calls; then a few hands later when I shove 98s I reap the reward by not getting called (and of course I don't show that one, lol).
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Open shoving is the worst thing in the world.
Really? No matter what your M is (that is, no matter what the stacks and blinds)? My whole game is pretty much based (in later stages) around open shoving. I'm much more reluctant (as we've been discussing in another thread) to shove when someone has already raised. I am much more into hanging back and attacking weakness and passivity than getting into big preflop battles with players who have already made a move on the pot. My Tournament Indicator tends to show me at late stages of MTTs as raising preflop more than anyone at the table (or top two at least); but the vast majority of the time that is open raising (meaning open shoving if stacks are short enough).
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Really? No matter what your M is (that is, no matter what the stacks and blinds)? My whole game is pretty much based (in later stages) around open shoving. I'm much more reluctant (as we've been discussing in another thread) to shove when someone has already raised. I am much more into hanging back and attacking weakness and passivity than getting into big preflop battles with players who have already made a move on the pot. My Tournament Indicator tends to show me at late stages of MTTs as raising preflop more than anyone at the table (or top two at least); but the vast majority of the time that is open raising (meaning open shoving if stacks are short enough).
The effective stacks here are perfect for this situation, and a weak looking raise from the CO is ASKING to be shoved on. You want to get your chips in here, and standard opening is the best way to do that. You are going to get lots of smaller pairs and Ax type hands to shove on you, whereas if you open shove, you are going to fold out a vast majority of those type of hands.I understand your meta game strategy thoughts, but after you have shoved a couple more times (and not shown) everyone will realize that you have a much wider range. In essence, you are losing SO much value by open shoving this hand, that you cant make up for it with the slight gain you *might* get on another hand or two.This is entirely too deep to be open-shoving with 89s also. With this M you should be standard opening strong hands, hoping to get repopped and restealing when possible. You shouldn't be raise/folding anything at this point, and open shoving 89s from anything but maybe the button or SB has got to be ---ev.
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Why oh why do you guys insist on parsing everything in terms of bbs without dealing with M (that is, the effect of antes)? The situation here is like having just under 10bbs with no antes. And when my M is hovering just above the Red Zone as it is here, I'm shoving most any hand I want to play. Exceptions would be limping in EP with AA or maybe KK if there are aggressive players still to act, and the occasional completion of the SB with some speculative hands if the BB is reasonably passive.Sure, you might be able to squeeze a little more value out of premium hands like this if you take your line. But I think I get more value overall because I shove the QQ and then show it if no one calls; then a few hands later when I shove 98s I reap the reward by not getting called (and of course I don't show that one, lol).
I actually like to use both. I just think they have different uses.BBs just helps you think about your stack relative to the pot on the flop. M measures the pressure you are under from the blinds. It's just easier to set up a plan for the hand if you count it in BBs. M kinda dictates your range, BBs dictates the best way to play that range.I think making a standard raise is open is better than shoving. The reason they have the 10BB rule is because once you open pre, you've put too much of your stack in to do anything but shove the flop. It's better to just shove and maximize value/fold equity depending on the situation. When we're 15 BBs deep, even with antes, we still have options on the flop. We're not forced to open shove the flop if our raise is called. Also, shoving all in narrows the range of hands that we will be called with and forces our opponents to play correctly against us. The opposite end of it is that then we don't have to risk our entire tournament life to take down the blinds and antes. We can simply open raise our 98s in position and still have a similar amount of fold equity. Obviously, we need to use BBs to plan ahead and determine if we'll be priced into calling a shove if someone comes over the top of us, but there isn't an easy way to do that with M because that's not what it's designed for.I mean don't get me wrong, if someone opens ahead of us then I think it's the perfect situation to shove, but usually when a tight player open overshoves all in, I put him on a pretty narrow range and fold my eights.(P.S - call)
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One thing about shoving to set up future shoves: if you shove repeatedly and frequently enough, this is actually going to encourage calls on subsequent shoves, rather than encourage folds. Considering how often a typical player gets a premium hand, eventually even the most clueless donkey at the table, let alone everyone else, will realize you're not shoving with premium hands, and by about the 3rd or 4th time you do it, if anyone has any two paint, any ace or a pair, you're getting called.This is especially true at this stage of this tournament, where even the average stacks are getting short relative to the blinds and antes. People will get desperate as they realize they need to double through ASAP to remain viable. The calling ranges will widen, not narrow.

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I understand your meta game strategy thoughts, but after you have shoved a couple more times (and not shown) everyone will realize that you have a much wider range. In essence, you are losing SO much value by open shoving this hand, that you cant make up for it with the slight gain you *might* get on another hand or two.This is entirely too deep to be open-shoving with 89s also. With this M you should be standard opening strong hands, hoping to get repopped and restealing when possible. You shouldn't be raise/folding anything at this point, and open shoving 89s from anything but maybe the button or SB has got to be ---ev.
You take the same line for the Orange Zone as does Erik Lindgren in his book. I favour the strategy laid down by "Action Dan" Harrington in HoH. From V2 p. 137: "In the Orange Zone, you'll often need to consider opening the pot with an all-in move." And in the hand we're discussing here, we're closer to the low end than the high end of the Orange Zone. I personally consider anything below M of 8 shove/fold territory, and I certainly think this is a reasonable reading of Harrington.As for what types of hands to shove, Harrington says on p. 138: "When contemplating an all in move as your opening play, small pairs become playable hands once more, as can suited connectors" (emphasis mine).Now, I'm not saying you have to take HoH as the gospel truth--I don't follow all of its precepts by any means. But I think it's hard to just authoritatively say that a strategy that comes right out of HoH is flat wrong, like something only a bad player would do! One more point from HoH. You and MovingIn both made a similar point that my "meta-game strategy" of shoving strong hands and showing them to set up shoves with weaker hands is flawed, because you think people will notice that I didn't show the others and assume those times I had trash. Well, for one thing I rarely shove with complete trash--I like to have something like suited connectors (including one or even two gappers), a suited ace, or a small pair so if I get called by a premium hand, my hand has a reasonable chance to make a straight, flush, or set that can still win the day. But also, I'm actually constantly amazed by how rarely people seem to notice that I show the strong hands but not others. Dan H. recognises this phenomenon as well, in HoH V1. On p. 149 he notes that he himself does not like to show his hand after everyone folds, ever. But he allows that it could be an effective strategy for certain types of players. He gives the anecdote of watching "one of the most successful" players at a tournament, who was raising with a lot of hands but only showing some of them ("an AQ here, an AK there, a few pairs mixed in"). He continues (emphasis mine):

"What he was doing was
controlling the table
by showing the hands where he wasn't bluffing, as if to say 'Look, I'm playing a lot of pots, but see, I really am holding great cards.' Of course, he wasn't showing most of his hands, where he was no doubt holding utter trash. But
since people remember what they see, and not what they don't see
, he was leaving an impression of a player that could not be faced unless you were holding great cards."

I have found this to be very true in my experience. Thus, I would much rather "control the table" than squeeze a little more value out of premium hands while losing some of my fold equity and for that matter even with the premium hands taking more of a chance of getting sucked out on (I strongly believe in tournaments as opposed to cash games, it's important to get as many pots as possible in your column without having to go to showdown, even if you sacrifice a little average chip equity).

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"What he was doing was controlling the table by showing the hands where he wasn't bluffing, as if to say 'Look, I'm playing a lot of pots, but see, I really am holding great cards.' Of course, he wasn't showing most of his hands, where he was no doubt holding utter trash. But since people remember what they see, and not what they don't see, he was leaving an impression of a player that could not be faced unless you were holding great cards."
It must be noted that HOH is a few years old, and while it still has plenty of useful information, the styles that Harrington played against in major tournaments aren't the styles that you'll see today, whether in major tourneys, in local cardrooms or online.Keep in mind that players online see a much larger volume of hands over a period of time (from the speed of play and the ability to multitable) than a player will see playing a live tournament, and Harrington's experience comes almost exclusively from live play. Whereas an impression-based strategem like the one Harrington suggests might work against an impressionable player in a live tournament... it's not so certain it'll work against an online player that may be 2-4 tabling at any given time. Even if said player is only playing that given tourney at that time, he might not notice or care if a player shows down TPTK or a set or a straight or whatever after everyone folds to that player's bet on the turn, since so many players show down bluffs and strong hands after taking down pots without a showdown, and it's all just noise meant for table image and assorted deception anyway so whatever.
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