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Two Pair Early In A 27-man


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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO (t1320)Hero (Button) (t1720)SB (t3265)BB (t2300)UTG (t1755)MP (t2030)Hero's M: 38.22Preflop: Hero is Button with 7 :D, A :D2 folds, MP calls t30, 1 fold, Hero raises to t120, 2 folds, MP calls t90I only play these mid card unsuited aces in late position and if I think I can play the pot heads up. If I'm against more than 1 player, I play these hands extremely cautiously postflop. I felt like I could do that at this table.The villain is a pretty standard, cautious player. He isn't super tight, but he isn't acting like a donk either.Flop: (t285) 6 :club:, 7 :4h, A :5c(2 players)MP checks, Hero bets t150, MP calls t150Hit a gin flop, and I want to protect my hand from the drawy board. Should I have bet more here?Turn: (t585) 8 :D(2 players)MP checks, Hero checksDidn't like that straight card. At this point I put the villain on an AQ, AJ, or AT. I figured he would be more aggressive with AK, so I ruled it out.River: (t585) K :ts(2 players)MP bets t300, Hero raises to t900, MP calls t600I haven't seen this guy bluff once, so I rule out a steal attempt. I think he's value betting an ace with a high kicker here. I consider the possibility of AK, which would be sick, but I think he would have played that hand faster preflop.I reraise, thinking there are several worse hands that will call me here. Good or bad idea? Is the raise too big?Total pot: t2385What do you guys think about this line?I think, in retrospect, I should have bet more at the flop, since I'll be called by lots of worse aces, and it will chase out draws, and since if he doesn't have an ace, I won't make much money anyway.

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Heads up, you need to bet at least 2/3 pot, if not a pot sized bet, to protect your hand. I'd make it at least 200.Once you checked the turn, villain may have led and called your raise because he thought you simply c-bet the flop and were bluffing him. A raise makes sense here if you're certain you're best and you know you'll get at least a call. Otherwise, just call and showdown: our Aces up obviously has showdown value.

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Turn: (t585) 8 :club:(2 players)MP checks, Hero checksDidn't like that straight card. At this point I put the villain on an AQ, AJ, or AT. I figured he would be more aggressive with AK, so I ruled it out.
Think about this for a sec. If you put him on AQ, AJ, or AT, why the heck would you be scared of the straight card?On the river you have to assume you're still good. You just can't give him credit for AK there.
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Thanks for all of your responses, folks!

Think about this for a sec. If you put him on AQ, AJ, or AT, why the heck would you be scared of the straight card?On the river you have to assume you're still good. You just can't give him credit for AK there.
LOL. Good point. I still considered the possibility that he was drawing to a straight on the flop though, so I just checked for pot control purposes.So much for pot control on the river though. After he called my 600 reraise, he turned over 4c5c for the low straight.Any way to put him on this hand? Or did he disguise it too well by checking the turn?So, in conclusion, I definitely should have bet more on the flop. Might have chased him out. Even right after I made my bet, I felt like I should have bet 200 instead of 150.Alot of you said to bet the turn, and I suppose I could have gotten more information from him that way. A call here would look suspicious. I think that I would have not reraised him on the river if he calls flop/calls turn/leads out river, since that probably means he's strong.On the other hand, if I check the turn, I don't think there's any way I'm not reraising the river. The chance that he has AJish is just too great and I'm losing alot of value by keeping this pot small -- don't you guys agree? I should have reraised less though -- I typed out my raise without thinking the amount through properly. Is minraising only for donks? If so, I think 700 would be correct.
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Alot of you said to bet the turn, and I suppose I could have gotten more information from him that way. A call here would look suspicious. I think that I would have not reraised him on the river if he calls flop/calls turn/leads out river, since that probably means he's strong.On the other hand, if I check the turn, I don't think there's any way I'm not reraising the river.
I actually like the pot control check on the turn. We now know he has the straight, but A8 becomes a possibility at that point along with the straight. But since you are playing the pot control game, it doesn't make sense to raise the river when your hand didn't improve (a two pair hand that is beat by AK and A8 as well as straights and sets is no monster on the river). The river bet could easily be a bluff that you invited with the turn check--but there is no reason to raise if that's the case as a bluffer will just fold and you'll lose more money when you're beat. There are going to be times that your river raise will get called by AJ or the like, I suppose; but unless you dangle very inviting pot odds, a lot of solid opponents would fold those hands to a c/r there. All in all, I like the idea of keeping this middle-strength hand in small pot territory, meaning play it the same way but just call the river.Alan
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That's true, I did overvalue it.However, I'm 100% sure I can rule out AK here. Let's say that he hypothetically is. Limp in? Okay, so he's playing AK trappy, hoping to get a raise. Wait, but he gets his raise, and doesn't reraise? Very odd. And now he flops his TPTK and doesn't lead out? Just check calls? And he doesn't raise the turn either? This all went through my head when the King hit, and I concluded it was a blank. I put him on an ace here, but I was confident he didn't have AK.You bring up a good point about A8 though. I didn't consider that and that's a very good reason to just call the river. Also he could have been slowplaying a set, which I didn't really consider. I only thought about aces and straights.Also, I can assure you, I'd been watching this guy play, and I knew this wasn't a bluff, so we can rule that out too. I knew when I raised that I was getting called. Also I was fully prepared to throw my hand away to an all-in, although it would have been painful since I raised him too large.

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A6/A8 make sense here. AT maybe too. Other random 2 pair hands/weaker aces maybe.I don't mind checking behind on the turn either, does give him a nice pot sized river shove if he check/calls which is not really what I want to see.As a general point, if I check behind on the turn I'd be MORE inclined to reraise the river with marginal holdings (like you have) than if I'd bet since your hand is underepped. However I don't think this is the case here since there's not a lot which bet/calls here which you beat since a load of weaker 2 pair hands check/call.

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A6/A8 make sense here. AT maybe too. Other random 2 pair hands/weaker aces maybe.I don't mind checking behind on the turn either, does give him a nice pot sized river shove if he check/calls which is not really what I want to see.As a general point, if I check behind on the turn I'd be MORE inclined to reraise the river with marginal holdings (like you have) than if I'd bet since your hand is underepped. However I don't think this is the case here since there's not a lot which bet/calls here which you beat since a load of weaker 2 pair hands check/call.
Maybe I'm way off base here, but do you guys always bet the flop, check the turn, and only call on the river when you flop a relatively safe top 2? I think you miss a ton of value by not betting the turn.After the flop we can put the villain on a few hands... some type of flush draw, a connected hand that caught a piece (45, 56, 78, 79, 89), or a weaker Ace-x type hand. I wouldn't worry about a set here.When the 8 hits on the turn, I would never ever slow down here, as that card only helped 45 (sure that's what he ended up having, but that's irrelevant). You're still going to get value from a lot of Ax type hands, and you don't want to give the other draws a free card.You should be pretty confident in your hand right now, but its rarely going to improve by the river. You could get counterfeited by an 8, or slowed down by a flush or straight card on the river. So take the opportunity to get chips in the pot while you are likely ahead, as you are going to be frozen on the river by a lot of cards, and won't be able to extract value by checking the turn and raising the river.
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Maybe I'm way off base here, but do you guys always bet the flop, check the turn, and only call on the river when you flop a relatively safe top 2? I think you miss a ton of value by not betting the turn.After the flop we can put the villain on a few hands... some type of flush draw, a connected hand that caught a piece (45, 56, 78, 79, 89), or a weaker Ace-x type hand. I wouldn't worry about a set here.When the 8 hits on the turn, I would never ever slow down here, as that card only helped 45 (sure that's what he ended up having, but that's irrelevant). You're still going to get value from a lot of Ax type hands, and you don't want to give the other draws a free card.You should be pretty confident in your hand right now, but its rarely going to improve by the river. You could get counterfeited by an 8, or slowed down by a flush or straight card on the river. So take the opportunity to get chips in the pot while you are likely ahead, as you are going to be frozen on the river by a lot of cards, and won't be able to extract value by checking the turn and raising the river.
Wow, this is excellent reasoning on why to bet the turn. I definitely prefer this line. I need to be thinking about what cards would scare me. I was really lucky that the river blanked or else I wouldn't have been able to raise. Well, really unlucky in retrospect, but you see what I mean.Here's some interesting math, guys. The pot as played is 2385. If I bet 200 on the flop, 340 (half) on the turn, and call 600 on the river as most of you would play it, the pot would be slightly bigger, 2565. If I played it the way I did, but in a more polished way (200 flop, check turn, 300+400 river), the pot would be 2085. I just decided to plug these in to see what would happen 'cause it's interesting.If we play the pot extremely carefully like Slacker, the pot would be much smaller, 1285. I disagree with this play though because I really think we are losing alot of value here, against AJ. I would just hate seeing all those chips still sitting pretty in his stack, when I know he would have called a small reraise.Your responses seem to be fairly kind, so I guess I didn't play the hand too badly. I was extremely confident in my misread though. I wonder how often I show up with the winning hand?Also, I tend to bet like 60-70% of the pot on both the flop and the turn. On an instinct level, I like betting more on the flop and less on the turn more, and so I will start doing that. Can you explain to me why this is a better strategy though so the non-instinctual part of me understands? :)By the way this post was written really late at night so sorry if it's confusing and jumbled.
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Wow, this is excellent reasoning on why to bet the turn. I definitely prefer this line. I need to be thinking about what cards would scare me. I was really lucky that the river blanked or else I wouldn't have been able to raise. Well, really unlucky in retrospect, but you see what I mean.Here's some interesting math, guys. The pot as played is 2385. If I bet 200 on the flop, 340 (half) on the turn, and call 600 on the river as most of you would play it, the pot would be slightly bigger, 2565. If I played it the way I did, but in a more polished way (200 flop, check turn, 300+400 river), the pot would be 2085. I just decided to plug these in to see what would happen 'cause it's interesting.If we play the pot extremely carefully like Slacker, the pot would be much smaller, 1285. I disagree with this play though because I really think we are losing alot of value here, against AJ. I would just hate seeing all those chips still sitting pretty in his stack, when I know he would have called a small reraise.Your responses seem to be fairly kind, so I guess I didn't play the hand too badly. I was extremely confident in my misread though. I wonder how often I show up with the winning hand?Also, I tend to bet like 60-70% of the pot on both the flop and the turn. On an instinct level, I like betting more on the flop and less on the turn more, and so I will start doing that. Can you explain to me why this is a better strategy though so the non-instinctual part of me understands? :)By the way this post was written really late at night so sorry if it's confusing and jumbled.
On your betting strategy, I like the idea of making bigger c-bets than some on the flop. If you actually have a hand, the size of the pot grows exponentially based on how many chips get in on the flop. You also may take down a couple pots with these stronger looking bets. As for the turn, if I have a very strong hand I'll look at how big of a bet I need to make in order for a reasonably sized river bet to get all of the chips in the middle.Somewhat related to your question, I have noticed that for the most part, the turn is where the most information can be determined from a hand. If someone is out of position, and fires a second barrel on the turn, you better have some real heat to continue with the hand. A lot of people will go for a pot control check on the turn if they have a marginal holding after being called on the flop. A second barrel is like a brazillion times more likely to be a bluff if the the bet is made from someone in position.
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Here's some interesting math, guys. The pot as played is 2385. If I bet 200 on the flop, 340 (half) on the turn, and call 600 on the river as most of you would play it, the pot would be slightly bigger, 2565. If I played it the way I did, but in a more polished way (200 flop, check turn, 300+400 river), the pot would be 2085. I just decided to plug these in to see what would happen 'cause it's interesting.If we play the pot extremely carefully like Slacker, the pot would be much smaller, 1285. I disagree with this play though because I really think we are losing alot of value here, against AJ. I would just hate seeing all those chips still sitting pretty in his stack, when I know he would have called a small reraise.
This is very good thinking, thinking 2 streets ahead regarding stack size/pot size/how you like your hand and how to max value is key thinking in MTTs. People who just fire the same sized bets regardless are often missing out on value/end up being in awkard spots with pot size : stack size ratio by the riverGenerally I bet 70% as a flop c bet early, once antes kick in about 50%. Less on the turn. This varies a lot though.
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Generally I bet 70% as a flop c bet early, once antes kick in about 50%. Less on the turn. This varies a lot though.
Based on a poker book I read this summer, I have reduced my c-bets from about 60% of the pot to around 40%. I feel like it's been a big part of my increased success since then.
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If we play the pot extremely carefully like Slacker, the pot would be much smaller, 1285. I disagree with this play though because I really think we are losing alot of value here, against AJ. I would just hate seeing all those chips still sitting pretty in his stack, when I know he would have called a small reraise.
I think whatever value you are losing there is more than made up for by:(1) Most obviously, you lose less when you are behind. And since this is tourney strat and not cash game strat, you can't just look at what gives you the most chips on average like you can with a cash game. Survival is involved as well, so you don't want wild variations in how hands turn out.(2) You may make less against AJ playing it my way, but you also make *more* against a variety of other hands playing it my way. The reason for this is that if you bet the flop, then check the turn, many villains will see this as a c-bet and figure you missed the flop. So they will then bet the river with little or nothing, whereas they would have folded to a second barrel on the turn.
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