Can A Catholic Vote For The Pro-choice Obama?

[85suited 0]

Yes it is. In the grand scheme of things, we have like 35-45 more pressing problems. (And I agree with Copernicus that the president will have little effect on abortion policy though I would raise it from 0% to 3%).However, I will agree that abortion is like 2000 spots higher on the importance list than gay marriage.

agreed, IMO it is a states rights issue and should not be publicly funded...I suppose I pay for the baby whether it is killed or alive.. I lose.... nevermind

[strategy 4]

agreed, IMO it is a states rights issue and should not be publicly funded...I suppose I pay for the baby whether it is killed or alive.. I lose.... nevermind

the key is to look at each baby killed as an extra few cents in your pocket. that's how I rationalize it, and I really don't at all feel bad about leaving 3-4 pennies in the "take a penny leave a penny" cup. my girlfriend, on the other hand, just throws her pennies out the window onto the street whenever she gets them in the drive-through.

[85suited 0]

the key is to look at each baby killed as an extra few cents in your pocket. that's how I rationalize it, and I really don't at all feel bad about leaving 3-4 pennies in the "take a penny leave a penny" cup. my girlfriend, on the other hand, just throws her pennies out the window onto the street whenever she gets them in the drive-through.

might be the funniest line I have ever read in the forum

[CaneBrain 95]

the key is to look at each baby killed as an extra few cents in your pocket. that's how I rationalize it, and I really don't at all feel bad about leaving 3-4 pennies in the "take a penny leave a penny" cup. my girlfriend, on the other hand, just throws her pennies out the window onto the street whenever she gets them in the drive-through.

oddly, Rockefeller Republicans dont see it this way. go figure."We figure an abortion clinic is a good place to meet loose women."

[LadyGrey 6]

the key is to look at each baby killed as an extra few cents in your pocket. that's how I rationalize it, and I really don't at all feel bad about leaving 3-4 pennies in the "take a penny leave a penny" cup. my girlfriend, on the other hand, just throws her pennies out the window onto the street whenever she gets them in the drive-through.

The reason I throw the pennies out of the window is to pay back the taxpayers for funding my abortions. It's my way of saying "Thanks, you guys."

[CaneBrain 95]

The reason I throw the pennies out of the window is to pay back the taxpayers for funding my abortions. It's my way of saying "Thanks, you guys."

abortions plural, eh? How you doin?

[brvheart 1,756]

Barack Obama has held himself out as a bridge builder across even divisive issues. No topic fits that description more than abortion.In the final presidential debate Wednesday, Obama had seemingly finished giving his view on abortion when he added these words: Abortion is "always a tragic situation," he said, and we should "try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred ... and providing options for adoption and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby. ... Nobody is pro-abortion. ... We should try to reduce these circumstances."On those words the election may turn. Some Republicans are telling Catholics that supporting Obama is a sin. Catholics are instructed not to cast a ballot for an advocate of abortion, but these partisans overstate the church's teaching to make an even broader claim: Namely, that a pro-choice candidate is off-limits too. Were this true, Obama's substantial lead in the polls might be subject to religious preemption among the 25% to 30% of voters who are Catholic in such battleground states as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri and Florida.So can Catholics vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is yes, but as I found when I publicly endorsed Obama, you've then got "some 'splain'n' to do." It's a matter of conscience, but had Obama proclaimed himself to be pro-choice and said nothing more, it would have been problematic. But there are those additional words about appropriate education as well as adoption and assistance for mothers who choose to keep their baby. This is not just debate posturing. It is consistent with Obama's successful effort to add language to the Democratic platform affirming the choice of a mother to keep her child by pledging pre- and post-natal care, funded maternity leave and income support for poor women who, studies show, are four times more likely to pursue an abortion absent some tangible assistance. Some might ask, isn't John McCain, the self-proclaimed "pro-lifer," still a morally superior choice for Catholics? Not necessarily. McCain's commitment, as he stressed in the debate, is to try to reverse Roe vs. Wade. But Republicans have been after this for decades, and the effort has not saved a single child. Even if Roe were reversed -- unlikely, in my judgment -- it merely transfers the question to the states, most of which are not expected to ban abortion. A Catholic serious about preserving life could reasonably find Obama's educational and material assistance to mothers the practical, stronger alternative. Of course, this alternative is less than the absolute legal protection for unborn life sought by the Catholic faith, but it is more than the GOP delivers, or can deliver, with its speculations about judicial vacancies and reconsidered precedents. And it is reflective of an inescapable truth: While Americans worship God in differing ways, we are also a nation that seeks a common political ideal. Pursuit of that goal, too, has shaped Obama's campaign, which has sought to lessen the division between red and blue states in order to restore the nation. Compelled support for one religious view over another, or compelled support for the Supreme Court's view, would inevitably leave us divided for years. The way out is to remember that when there are differences among religious creeds, none is entitled to be given preference in law or policy.Sometimes the law must simply leave space for the exercise of individual judgment, because our religious or scientific differences of opinion are for the moment too profound to be bridged collectively. When these differences are great and persistent, as they unfortunately have been on abortion, the common political ideal may consist only of that space. This does not, of course, leave the right to life undecided or unprotected. Nor for that matter does the reservation of space for individual determination usurp for Caesar the things that are God's, or vice versa. Rather, it allows this sensitive moral decision to depend on religious freedom and the voice of God as articulated in each individual's voluntary embrace of one of many faiths. Catholics know how to pick presidents. In the last nine presidential contests, Catholics have been with the popular vote-getter every time. Where are the Catholics lining up in 2008? A recent Zogby poll has the national Catholic vote as a dead heat within the margin of error. If Catholic past is prologue, this election will be far closer than general polling suggests, and Obama's few additional words in the final debate may prove to be his political salvation. Douglas W. Kmiec is a law professor and the author of "Can a Catholic Support Him? Asking the Big Question About Barack Obama."

LOL... by 'some republicans are telling Catholics' I assume you mean Catholic Bishops and the pope, many of who are not even American are telling Catholics that voting for Obama is a sin. If the pope says it, it's a fact. (for a Catholic) There is absolutely no need for discussion.

[brvheart 1,756]

Barack Obama has held himself out as a bridge builder across even divisive issues. No topic fits that description more than abortion.In the final presidential debate Wednesday, Obama had seemingly finished giving his view on abortion when he added these words: Abortion is "always a tragic situation," he said, and we should "try to prevent unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred ... and providing options for adoption and helping single mothers if they want to choose to keep the baby. ... Nobody is pro-abortion. ... We should try to reduce these circumstances."On those words the election may turn. Some Republicans are telling Catholics that supporting Obama is a sin. Catholics are instructed not to cast a ballot for an advocate of abortion, but these partisans overstate the church's teaching to make an even broader claim: Namely, that a pro-choice candidate is off-limits too. Were this true, Obama's substantial lead in the polls might be subject to religious preemption among the 25% to 30% of voters who are Catholic in such battleground states as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri and Florida.So can Catholics vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is yes, but as I found when I publicly endorsed Obama, you've then got "some 'splain'n' to do." It's a matter of conscience, but had Obama proclaimed himself to be pro-choice and said nothing more, it would have been problematic. But there are those additional words about appropriate education as well as adoption and assistance for mothers who choose to keep their baby. This is not just debate posturing. It is consistent with Obama's successful effort to add language to the Democratic platform affirming the choice of a mother to keep her child by pledging pre- and post-natal care, funded maternity leave and income support for poor women who, studies show, are four times more likely to pursue an abortion absent some tangible assistance. Some might ask, isn't John McCain, the self-proclaimed "pro-lifer," still a morally superior choice for Catholics? Not necessarily. McCain's commitment, as he stressed in the debate, is to try to reverse Roe vs. Wade. But Republicans have been after this for decades, and the effort has not saved a single child. Even if Roe were reversed -- unlikely, in my judgment -- it merely transfers the question to the states, most of which are not expected to ban abortion. A Catholic serious about preserving life could reasonably find Obama's educational and material assistance to mothers the practical, stronger alternative. Of course, this alternative is less than the absolute legal protection for unborn life sought by the Catholic faith, but it is more than the GOP delivers, or can deliver, with its speculations about judicial vacancies and reconsidered precedents. And it is reflective of an inescapable truth: While Americans worship God in differing ways, we are also a nation that seeks a common political ideal. Pursuit of that goal, too, has shaped Obama's campaign, which has sought to lessen the division between red and blue states in order to restore the nation. Compelled support for one religious view over another, or compelled support for the Supreme Court's view, would inevitably leave us divided for years. The way out is to remember that when there are differences among religious creeds, none is entitled to be given preference in law or policy.Sometimes the law must simply leave space for the exercise of individual judgment, because our religious or scientific differences of opinion are for the moment too profound to be bridged collectively. When these differences are great and persistent, as they unfortunately have been on abortion, the common political ideal may consist only of that space. This does not, of course, leave the right to life undecided or unprotected. Nor for that matter does the reservation of space for individual determination usurp for Caesar the things that are God's, or vice versa. Rather, it allows this sensitive moral decision to depend on religious freedom and the voice of God as articulated in each individual's voluntary embrace of one of many faiths. Catholics know how to pick presidents. In the last nine presidential contests, Catholics have been with the popular vote-getter every time. Where are the Catholics lining up in 2008? A recent Zogby poll has the national Catholic vote as a dead heat within the margin of error. If Catholic past is prologue, this election will be far closer than general polling suggests, and Obama's few additional words in the final debate may prove to be his political salvation. Douglas W. Kmiec is a law professor and the author of "Can a Catholic Support Him? Asking the Big Question About Barack Obama."

Also, if you think this is actually true, I don't know what to say. BHO saying that is like McCain picking Palin.http://www.ppaction.org/ppvotes/person-vot...person_id=19820If Planned Parenthood rates you 100%, you are NOT moderate on the abortion issue. For a Catholic, voting for Obama is absolutely a sin. (Since they think that the pope's word is final)EDIT: I just realized that you didn't write that, but I'm assuming that you believe it since you copied & pasted.

[Nimue1995 1]

I disagree that whites are the oppressors. I disagree that God must be for black people and against white people. I disagree that the black community is disadvantaged. That's enough for a start.And I'll say this again, which may or may not sink in to those who aren't Christian. A Christian can not AND will not attend a church for 20+ years if they disagree with what the pastor is saying. Not now, not ever. He attended that church because he believes in the pastor and what he is teaching.

So you agree with every position your pastor takes? And he/she allows no input or debate from the congregation on any point? Com'on, he's already said that this is a position that many older people in the black community take. Just like I consider my dad's racism to be more to do with him being a different generation that it did with him actually thinking that black people were somehow lesser. He just plain didn't realize that some of the stuff he said could be considered racist. Didn't even enter his thinking. But I didn't think less of him for it, I just realized that he really didn't understand. I think this is what Obama has tried to make people understand also.

I've somehow found myself in the mixed up 3rd dimension that is DANIEL NEGREANU'S POKER BLOG FORUM aka everyone argue about politics forum. I found this topic pretty interesting so Ill throw my 2 cents out there. I've been a catholic my entire life. I went to catholic private school from kindergarden to 8th grade, was an altar boy, attended mass every sunday etc. I slowly grew pretty tired of the religion.. I think it was the monotony of mass each sunday and the same lectures on the same things over and over. By the time I was in college, the only times I'd go to mass were with my family when I wsa home on the breaks and stuff. I still remember going to mass my senior year of high school (2004) before the election... and hearing the priest's gospel which he devoted entirely to reminding everyone that if you do not vote for george bush, you're a sinner and will essentially go to hell for supporting abortion. Obviously, those werent the exact words but it wasnt far off. I wasnt old enough to vote back then but I found it absurd that the ONLY issue the catholic church is concerned about is the issue of Abortion.. (obviously making any catholic a conservative since the GOP wants roe v. wade appealed... etc.)What Im trying to say is... I grew up in about as conservative of a home one can, but right now Im pretty far way from my parent's political views and one of the biggest reasons why is that The Catholic Church is stupid enough to ENCOURAGE their patrons TO LOOK AT ONE ISSUE AnD ONE ISSUE ALONE. HOW STUPID IS THAT?!!?! and yes... this is 100% what catholic voters vote based on... as I can tell you my grandparents will vote simply based on that issue... Mbn to be the GOP when it comes to getting free votes....

This is actually the position of most conservative Christian churches, not just Catholics. But it amazes me that you all KNOW that the Republicans are lying through their teeth about doing anything about this issue but you continue to support them anyway. They had all kinds of opportunities during the Bush administration to put their money where their mouth was and did nothing. That should tell you just how high on their agenda it is. It only turns up during election years.

[neretva 0]

So you agree with every position your pastor takes? And he/she allows no input or debate from the congregation on any point? Com'on, he's already said that this is a position that many older people in the black community take. Just like I consider my dad's racism to be more to do with him being a different generation that it did with him actually thinking that black people were somehow lesser. He just plain didn't realize that some of the stuff he said could be considered racist. Didn't even enter his thinking. But I didn't think less of him for it, I just realized that he really didn't understand. I think this is what Obama has tried to make people understand also.

Sorry, your father doesn't get a pass for being a racist. Just admit it (you already have), condemn him for his stupidity and move on. The fact that he went along with the other racists out of habit is a character weakness, not a metaphysical inevitability. This is another example of making excuses for someone because they are blood. I hate when people do that.

[checkymcfold 0]

LOL... by 'some republicans are telling Catholics' I assume you mean Catholic Bishops and the pope, many of who are not even American are telling Catholics that voting for Obama is a sin. If the pope says it, it's a fact. (for a Catholic) There is absolutely no need for discussion.

different popes say different things about many issues. the times, they say, are a changin'.(aside: when you end a sentence with a word abbreviated with an apostrophe, does the apostrophe go outside or inside the period? i've always felt like it should go inside, since it's kinda part of the slang word itself, but i could be swayed otherwise if someone wants to look it up.)also, not allowing gays to get married creates two classes of citizens, something that we've generally tried to get away from over the course of our history, eh?

[brvheart 1,756]

different popes say different things about many issues. the times, they say, are a changin'.(aside: when you end a sentence with a word abbreviated with an apostrophe, does the apostrophe go outside or inside the period? i've always felt like it should go inside, since it's kinda part of the slang word itself, but i could be swayed otherwise if someone wants to look it up.)also, not allowing gays to get married creates two classes of citizens, something that we've generally tried to get away from over the course of our history, eh?

Of course they say different things, that's irrelevant to the good Catholic however. Whatever the pope says today is true, it doesn't matter if it's not Biblical. Also, the current pope is very anti-abortion and gay stuff.

[Loismustdie 0]

So you agree with every position your pastor takes? And he/she allows no input or debate from the congregation on any point? Com'on, he's already said that this is a position that many older people in the black community take. Just like I consider my dad's racism to be more to do with him being a different generation that it did with him actually thinking that black people were somehow lesser. He just plain didn't realize that some of the stuff he said could be considered racist. Didn't even enter his thinking. But I didn't think less of him for it, I just realized that he really didn't understand. I think this is what Obama has tried to make people understand also. This is actually the position of most conservative Christian churches, not just Catholics. But it amazes me that you all KNOW that the Republicans are lying through their teeth about doing anything about this issue but you continue to support them anyway. They had all kinds of opportunities during the Bush administration to put their money where their mouth was and did nothing. That should tell you just how high on their agenda it is. It only turns up during election years.

Oh, all kinds of opportunity, all kinds, because this shit just shoots through like a Volcano taco. You just excused racism? Just like that? How very stalwart of you- you're a real champion of the issues.

[Nimue1995 1]

Sorry, your father doesn't get a pass for being a racist. Just admit it (you already have), condemn him for his stupidity and move on. The fact that he went along with the other racists out of habit is a character weakness, not a metaphysical inevitability. This is another example of making excuses for someone because they are blood. I hate when people do that.

Oh, all kinds of opportunity, all kinds, because this shit just shoots through like a Volcano taco. You just excused racism? Just like that? How very stalwart of you- you're a real champion of the issues.

No I didn't. But I did love my dad even though he did at times say things I considered racist. And I even tried to talk to him about it but the fact was, he simply couldn't see it. He didn't understand how calling people colored was racist. He never used the N word at least not in my presence. But I couldn't get him to understand that a term he'd used all his life was a racist term. It just didn't compute for him. I believe that Obama's pastor was probably of that same generation. And sea change in basic attitudes takes at least a generation to take hold. And those holdovers from the previous one usually don't get it. I got called on my calling accessible parking spaces, handicapped. It was hard for me to get that the terms handicapped or disabled were demeaning. Both terms were ones I grew up with. And they were terms we learned to use instead of the term crippled. Anyway, I know that there have been many prominent Chicagoans who have attended Reverend Wright's church so I can't believe that he went into racist tirades on a weekly basis. In fact, if you even read all those sermons that the snippets have been lifted from, they are not nearly as bad as they have been made to appear. They do reflect that generation's beliefs because it's not that many years removed from the days of Jim Crow and segregation. I grew up in the 50's & 60's and I don't blame African Americans that went through it for being bitter. I'm surprised that there isn't more bitterness. Is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes. AND HAS OBAMA ENDORSED IT? NO! Not any more than I endorsed my dad's racism.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

No I didn't. But I did love my dad even though he did at times say things I considered racist. And I even tried to talk to him about it but the fact was, he simply couldn't see it. He didn't understand how calling people colored was racist. He never used the N word at least not in my presence. But I couldn't get him to understand that a term he'd used all his life was a racist term. It just didn't compute for him. I believe that Obama's pastor was probably of that same generation. And sea change in basic attitudes takes at least a generation to take hold. And those holdovers from the previous one usually don't get it. I got called on my calling accessible parking spaces, handicapped. It was hard for me to get that the terms handicapped or disabled were demeaning. Both terms were ones I grew up with. And they were terms we learned to use instead of the term crippled. Anyway, I know that there have been many prominent Chicagoans who have attended Reverend Wright's church so I can't believe that he went into racist tirades on a weekly basis. In fact, if you even read all those sermons that the snippets have been lifted from, they are not nearly as bad as they have been made to appear. They do reflect that generation's beliefs because it's not that many years removed from the days of Jim Crow and segregation. I grew up in the 50's & 60's and I don't blame African Americans that went through it for being bitter. I'm surprised that there isn't more bitterness. Is it right? No. Is it understandable? Yes. AND HAS OBAMA ENDORSED IT? NO! Not any more than I endorsed my dad's racism.

Your dad using the word "colored" is equal to the antiamerican and antisemism rants by Reverend Wright? That really explains quite a lot. Many prominent Chicagoans attend that Church because they agree with Reverend Wright. The whole theology of that Church is based on the evil of White Europeans. Please do some research it is the equivilant of the NeoNazi skinheads not your own father. Wow that just blows my mind that you compare your father to Rev. Wright because he uses the term colored. You may be a perfect illustration of what is called white guilt.

[Nimue1995 1]

Your dad using the word "colored" is equal to the antiamerican and antisemism rants by Reverend Wright? That really explains quite a lot. Many prominent Chicagoans attend that Church because they agree with Reverend Wright. The whole theology of that Church is based on the evil of White Europeans. Please do some research it is the equivilant of the NeoNazi skinheads not your own father. Wow that just blows my mind that you compare your father to Rev. Wright because he uses the term colored. You may be a perfect illustration of what is called white guilt.

Really? Okay give me to links to your vast research into Reverend Wright? I'm curious as to where you're getting your information. So you're telling me that Oprah is the reverse of NeoNazi skinheads? And by the way, that wasn't the only racist thing my dad said. He converted to Mormonism and if you know anything about their history, up to recently they didn't allow African Americans to hold the priesthood in that church because they had the "mark of Cain". And my dad believed that crap and we had many an argument over it. It was one of the reasons I got out of the Mormon church as soon as I came of age (along with it's treatment of women but that's a whole 'nother discussion). So basically I grew up in a racist church. Believe me, Rev. Wright is mild compared to the Mormons. But I haven't seen anyone on here denigating Romney as being racist and he still attends the Mormon church. Maybe it's because the Mormons are too big a constiuency for the Republicans to piss off.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Really? Okay give me to links to your vast research into Reverend Wright? I'm curious as to where you're getting your information. So you're telling me that Oprah is the reverse of NeoNazi skinheads? And by the way, that wasn't the only racist thing my dad said. He converted to Mormonism and if you know anything about their history, up to recently they didn't allow African Americans to hold the priesthood in that church because they had the "mark of Cain". And my dad believed that crap and we had many an argument over it. It was one of the reasons I got out of the Mormon church as soon as I came of age (along with it's treatment of women but that's a whole 'nother discussion). So basically I grew up in a racist church. Believe me, Rev. Wright is mild compared to the Mormons. But I haven't seen anyone on here denigating Romney as being racist and he still attends the Mormon church. Maybe it's because the Mormons are too big a constiuency for the Republicans to piss off.

http://www.acton.org/commentary/443_marxis...on_theology.phpYou really should read this, it explains a lot beyond what we are discussing here. Ok, your father being involved in a racist Church is more in line with Reverend Wright, I was under the impression that you were considering him racist because he used the term colored people. I don't know much about the mormans so I can't comment on them or Romney. There is no evidence Romney is a racist or the MSM media would have made it abundently clear during his past political campaigns. If Oprah is into black liberation thoelogy, then yes, she believes blacks are a supreme race and whites are the root of all evil. I wouldn't be surprised, because during election week back in 2000 or 2004, she had on Michael Moore who told the audience that the founders of America invented slavery. Honestly I don't know about Oprah. I definately believe that Michelle Obama believes wholeheartedly in BLT. It is consistant with the statements she has made about America. You would really do yourself good to research and read more than just the article I linked. I am all for MLK's dream of an America as a colored blind society where people are judged by the content of their character. That dream will be impossible to acheive if things such as BLT, and the "black culture" are simply repackaged versions of the same bigotry practiced by southern white slave owners. I'll bet if you reasearch this more thouroughly you will realize how anyone who is really agaisnt racism has to stand against it in all forms.

[Nimue1995 1]

http://www.acton.org/commentary/443_marxis...on_theology.phpYou really should read this, it explains a lot beyond what we are discussing here. Ok, your father being involved in a racist Church is more in line with Reverend Wright, I was under the impression that you were considering him racist because he used the term colored people. I don't know much about the mormans so I can't comment on them or Romney. There is no evidence Romney is a racist or the MSM media would have made it abundently clear during his past political campaigns. If Oprah is into black liberation thoelogy, then yes, she believes blacks are a supreme race and whites are the root of all evil. I wouldn't be surprised, because during election week back in 2000 or 2004, she had on Michael Moore who told the audience that the founders of America invented slavery. Honestly I don't know about Oprah. I definately believe that Michelle Obama believes wholeheartedly in BLT. It is consistant with the statements she has made about America. You would really do yourself good to research and read more than just the article I linked. I am all for MLK's dream of an America as a colored blind society where people are judged by the content of their character. That dream will be impossible to acheive if things such as BLT, and the "black culture" are simply repackaged versions of the same bigotry practiced by southern white slave owners. I'll bet if you reasearch this more thouroughly you will realize how anyone who is really agaisnt racism has to stand against it in all forms.

I chose to look up both in Wikipedia since it seems to me that many of these organizations including the Acton Institute have an agenda. It appears that Acton Institute is a Libertarian organization. Not that that's a bad thing but you have to take it into account when reading what they have to say on their website. Black Liberation Theology appears not to say that Blacks are superior but rather that Blacks are oppressed victims. In that I believe it's more of an anachronism as time goes on not a racist organization. It's my opinion that Reverend Wright is an old school black preacher that's clinging to beliefs that might have been relevent in the past but are less so today. But that's not to say that there still isn't latent racism in America today. Just the fact that Cope thinks the Bradley Effect will play a part in this election says that racism is still around. I may not agree with some of the stuff that Reverend Wright espouses but I do to some degree understand where it comes from. Again, he is from the generation that had to deal with segregation and Jim Crow. And the anger he and many of his generation has is understandable. And there are many blacks of the following generations that may not believe as he does but still understand it as well. My question to you that has still not been answered is: Do you have any links to anywhere that Obama has made racist remarks?

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I chose to look up both in Wikipedia since it seems to me that many of these organizations including the Acton Institute have an agenda. It appears that Acton Institute is a Libertarian organization. Not that that's a bad thing but you have to take it into account when reading what they have to say on their website. Black Liberation Theology appears not to say that Blacks are superior but rather that Blacks are oppressed victims. In that I believe it's more of an anachronism as time goes on not a racist organization. It's my opinion that Reverend Wright is an old school black preacher that's clinging to beliefs that might have been relevent in the past but are less so today. But that's not to say that there still isn't latent racism in America today. Just the fact that Cope thinks the Bradley Effect will play a part in this election says that racism is still around. I may not agree with some of the stuff that Reverend Wright espouses but I do to some degree understand where it comes from. Again, he is from the generation that had to deal with segregation and Jim Crow. And the anger he and many of his generation has is understandable. And there are many blacks of the following generations that may not believe as he does but still understand it as well. My question to you that has still not been answered is: Do you have any links to anywhere that Obama has made racist remarks?

Barack Obama chose to sit in Jerimiah Wrights church for 20 years. I understand that there are a lot of people in this country who can just dismiss this out of hand. Well, you have the freedom to do that. I can't. I choose to beleive that Obama attended that Chuch because he at least sympathizes with that philosophy. Ok, Black Liberation Theololgy doesn't bother you. I won't spend any more time trying to convince you. I just don't sympathize with the plight of African Americans that embrace BLT over the freedom and opputunity that America provides. In fact back in the 1890s black kids in Washington DC outperformed whites on standarized tests. I think even you will have to submit(though I can't be certain) that the racial climate in 1890 was significantly more severe than it is today.The Jesse Jacksons, Al Sharptons, Jerimiah Wrights, depend on blacks clinging to their victim status so they can further their grievence/Indentity political agenda which in the case of Jackson and Sharpton have made them wealthy. And Liberal Politicians depend on this victim status to get their votes. Here is an article you may find interesting. http://www.tsowell.com/speducat.html

[nopunk 0]

agreed, IMO it is a states rights issue and should not be publicly funded...I suppose I pay for the baby whether it is killed or alive.. I lose.... nevermind

This describes about 95% of public policy.