river_me_this 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 apparently all you guys just read my first post and reply from that. I've said many times throughout this thread that in this situation you could either play it cautiously or put it all in the middle it really depends on the read you have on your opponent, whether you can reload or if this is your last bullet, or if your winning or losing. I just think this situation can be played out in several different ways. Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 apparently all you guys just read my first post and reply from that. I've said many times throughout this thread that in this situation you could either play it cautiously or put it all in the middle it really depends on the read you have on your opponent, whether you can reload or if this is your last bullet, or if your winning or losing. I just think this situation can be played out in several different ways.It could be played several different ways. One of them really sucks. You suggested that one first. We suggest avoiding it. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerinc 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 apparently all you guys just read my first post and reply from that. I've said many times throughout this thread that in this situation you could either play it cautiously or put it all in the middle it really depends on the read you have on your opponent, whether you can reload or if this is your last bullet, or if your winning or losing. I just think this situation can be played out in several different ways.could play out in several ways isn't really strategy advice. You've got 11 posts. Abandon the account, lurk strat for a while, play and learn, try again in a month. Link to post Share on other sites
nopunk 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 could play out in several ways isn't really strategy advice. You've got 11 posts. Abandon the account, lurk strat for a while, play and learn, try again in a month.I think everyone knows that his user name is entire too clever to just abandon the account.Let's be serious here. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 1) ok he was raised on the flop which means to me at least that the opponent does not have a flush draw or ace rag especially since he thought that the opponent would shove against a reraise or shove on the turn. so im pretty sure unless the read was wrong he has better than a draw or ace rag. 2) im not here to get in an argument about this i usually try to mix my play up a lot and would do different things in this situation one of them being your advice but i feel in this situation I would check call then bet or check the turn especially out of posistion. Waylander 3) what ended up happening? 1) Ok, he didn't know that before he bet, but if you're psychic, you could think that way.2) This is so bad. You realize that you should be ram jamming every last penny you have into this pot. You have 125bbs, TPGK and the NFD + backdoor straight draws. I really don't care if he had 200bbs, he needs to be putting his money in the pot. 2a: C/c and then donkbetting or C/c the turn is absolutely terrible. You realize if you c/c the flop, donkbet the turn and get shoved on, he can make it improper for you to be able to call if he has you beat? This means that you lose half of your chance to hit one of your, at worst, 9 outs (generally more than that). 2b: If you c/c the flop and c/c the turn, again, he can make it mathematically incorrect for you to call the turn. 2c: If you c/c the flop and c/f the turn, you need to be shot in the face. BE AGGRESSIVE. BET YOUR OWN MONEY. DRIVE THE ACTION WITH BIG HANDS. DO IT NOW.3) THE OUTCOME IS IRRELEVANT. If the guy turns over top set here, it doesn't make c/c any better because the times he turns up with worse hands that pay you far out way the times he ever shows up with anything that is really terrible. Especially considering against the absolute worst hand he can have for us (top set), we still have 9 outs all day. You need to put your opponent on a RANGE of hands, not just what beats you or what you fear most, or just one hand in particular. Think about it this way:Board: Ad 8c TcDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 51.941% 47.76% 04.18% 24588 2151.00 { AcJc }Hand 1: 48.059% 43.88% 04.18% 22590 2151.00 { TT, 88, ATs+, A8s, KcQc, Qc9c, T8s, 9c7c, ATo+, A8o, T8o } Against all of these hands weighed evenly, you're a favorite. And this doesn't even include times when this moron shows up with stupid little flushes, worse aces that you beat, a ten 'trying to find out where it is at,' etc. This is basically just big draws and hands that beat you, and you're ahead. SHOVEL. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 apparently all you guys just read my first post and reply from that. I've said many times throughout this thread that in this situation you could either play it cautiously or put it all in the middle it really depends on the read you have on your opponent, whether you can reload or if this is your last bullet, or if your winning or losing. I just think this situation can be played out in several different ways. All of the bolded things are irrelevant. First of all, if you can't reload, you're playing above your head and shouldn't really be playing in the first place. If that's the case, don't expect a lot of strategy help, because cash games rely on your ability to reload.Winning or losing? That's complete bullshit. Who cares if you're winning or losing, if the correct mathematical play that makes you the most money when you're ahead (or even for that matter, behind) is bet/shoving, then that is what you do.It can be played in a few different ways, but the BEST way to play it, and the play that maximizes your equity is bet/shoving. You really shouldn't be varying your play much playing the droolers at 1/2nl live, they hardly would notice if you did anyway. You could practically turn your hand face up and people would still call you with worse because they were busy looking to see if their horse just came in 1st in the 6th race at the Aqueduct on the TV directly above your head. Link to post Share on other sites
river_me_this 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 ok all you guys think this advice is bad ok many of you have proven your point but all of you are not giving advice of your own all your doing is saying how bad mine is which i don't think is relevant to the original question. Bottom line all of you think it's bad advice ok so deal with it and give some of your own advice instead of just ganging up on me. Link to post Share on other sites
regionx8 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I'm not saying I wouldn't shove the flop especially if I didn't care about losing the extra $200 or so. There are many different scenarios though, if this is his last reload, if he feels he has opponent crushed with, like simo said, a lower flush draw or ace rag, then we might want to slow play it especially if he has ace rag and his kicker falls on the turn giving him two pair and you a flush. There are just way to many scenarios, I think to make a just decision.Just felt like chiming in and saying this made me laugh... What if the turn and river is A, A and he has JJ and thinks i have Aces full and we stack him with quads!! YA THATS WHATS UP! Link to post Share on other sites
river_me_this 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 also in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player. Link to post Share on other sites
regionx8 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 ok all you guys think this advice is bad ok many of you have proven your point but all of you are not giving advice of your own all your doing is saying how bad mine is which i don't think is relevant to the original question. Bottom line all of you think it's bad advice ok so deal with it and give some of your own advice instead of just ganging up on me.This also made me laugh. I believe the first reply was advice suggesting a shove......? Link to post Share on other sites
regionx8 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 also in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player.You're not including FE. What about the times he folds or was bluffing and you take it down right there. Or what about the times where you call and a club comes out and he folds? You lose a lot of value by flatting on a flop like this. Or you call and a club doesn't come out.. your still in the same situation but with less equity and more money invested... If a club doesn't come out what do you do? Donk the turn thinking you have the worst hand and turning it into a bluff? do you check and fold if he bets? do you check and call if he bets? None of these options on the turn is a very good one. If he was bluffing and he checks on the turn then you're not going to get any value from worse on the river..Your also forgetting the money in the pot already. Hero has 188 behind and can win a pot of 398 when called so if he wins 5 times thats $1990.. and the 5 times he loses he loses $940 (someone correct me if im thinking about this wrong?) Link to post Share on other sites
ReraiseAllIn 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 All of the bolded things are irrelevant. First of all, if you can't reload, you're playing above your head and shouldn't really be playing in the first place. If that's the case, don't expect a lot of strategy help, because cash games rely on your ability to reload.Winning or losing? That's complete bullshit. Who cares if you're winning or losing, if the correct mathematical play that makes you the most money when you're ahead (or even for that matter, behind) is bet/shoving, then that is what you do.It can be played in a few different ways, but the BEST way to play it, and the play that maximizes your equity is bet/shoving. You really shouldn't be varying your play much playing the droolers at 1/2nl live, they hardly would notice if you did anyway. You could practically turn your hand face up and people would still call you with worse because they were busy looking to see if their horse just came in 1st in the 6th race at the Aqueduct on the TV directly above your head.So much good advice in here. <3 Link to post Share on other sites
Teffy 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 also in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player.wrong.and advice is : shove on flop. Link to post Share on other sites
slt1der 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 ok he was raised on the flop which means to me at least that the opponent does not have a flush draw or ace rag especially since he thought that the opponent would shove against a reraise or shove on the turn. so im pretty sure unless the read was wrong he has better than a draw or ace rag. im not here to get in an argument about this i usually try to mix my play up a lot and would do different things in this situation one of them being your advice but i feel in this situation I would check call then bet or check the turn especially out of posistion.Check calling the flop and then leading out on the turn is donkish. Check calling twice is weak and passive with a monster in your hand. You lose way too much value both ways. also in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player.No. You need to stop being results oriented. Everyone's advice is to get the money into the middle because we've basically got a monster hand TPGK + NFD with all the right math. Seems like from your posts that you only put money into the pot if you got the nuts. Gotta work on that buddy. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 also in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player.I don't know if you noticed but pretty much every person has said, "Bet/shove" in those words or others.Also, against this opponents range, just hands that beat us and other big draws, we're flipping against. If we include a bunch of retarded hands he certainly could have, we're like a 2:1 or 3:1 favorite. Playing the hand the way you want to gives us the 50/50 win/loss ratio because you eliminate all measure of fold equity and give your opponent the chance to fold if you do catch up. If you take fold equity into account, and we certainly do have quite a bit of fold equity here, we're in a position to win this pot right here on the flop very often if we bet/shove. If not, the times we're behind, we're basically flipping. I mean, seriously, this is like Super System 101. If you've got to pick one hand to play aggressively other than the nuts, then it should be big draws and this is basically the best draw you can have. You're never drawing dead, you're never super way behind, you're making the correct play mathematically, you're maximizing fold equity, you're playing your hand like you have a monster, and even in the event you're called you're going to win fairly often.You need to realize how incredibly poor it is to c/c the flop and c/f or c/c the turn. Big Draws in NLHE are all about maximizing fold equity. If you c/c and c/f you lose all fold equity. Sure, if you play it that way, you'll get in a rut thinking that these hands aren't that big. But they really, really are. You need to spur the action in this hand. You're basically advocating to only bet with the nuts and try to c/c and c/f without them. You have no idea how exploitable that is. It only takes you showing this hand down once to make any sort of stride in metagame too. If you bet/shove and show down, every player at the table that knows what they're doing will take a mental note and say "hey, this guys aggressive, he's not an idiot, and he's not just nut peddling." If you show it down after check/calling two street, everyone who has a clue will say, "hey, this guy is a ****ing station unless he has the nuts." Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 This thread made me LOL.It should've been 1 post long and ended at Simo's 1st post.Just bet/shove/call shove, whatever. Checking this flop for almost any reason is retarded. Link to post Share on other sites
Dratj 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Snapshove. If you had >$500 the decision would be closer.of coursemight be a newb on the forum but not in pokerwell, it's worse than you are an experienced poker playerSimo knows what he's talking about. Newb, not so much... Seriously? Check the flop? With your stack, you're getting it in here. If you lost, hey bbfidts.... I just lost a $1500 pot on the Sunday playing 1/3NL live after flopping a jack high flush. Coolers happen. That is how they say "poker".I would however, expect this to be A8, AT or 88 a good amount of the time.details?apparently all you guys just read my first post and reply from that. I've said many times throughout this thread that in this situation you could either play it cautiously or put it all in the middle it really depends on the read you have on your opponent, whether you can reload or if this is your last bullet, or if your winning or losing. I just think this situation can be played out in several different ways.see belowIt could be played several different ways. One of them really sucks. You suggested that one first. We suggest avoiding it.yepalso in everyone elses advice if you are in a race then your going to win 5/10 times and lose the other 5/10 times which means you end up being a break even player with this situation. In my way if his club doesn't hit on the turn he can throw it and only lose $50 and if he hits it then he wins $250 (if opponent isn't scared by club) which makes you end up being a winning player.see! wrong again.This thread made me LOL.It should've been 1 post long and ended at Simo's 1st post.Just bet/shove/call shove, whatever. Checking this flop for almost any reason is retarded.yep. Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 if he feels he has opponent crushed with, like simo said, a lower flush draw or ace rag, then we might want to slow play it especially if he has ace rag and his kicker falls on the turn giving him two pair and you a flush.Ok, who's joke account is this? Link to post Share on other sites
ship 0 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 lol... epic thread...anyone else get a pm containing a link to some pocket5s stats for 'bgitty' on full tilt challenging them to HU from this dude? or am i just the guest of honor Link to post Share on other sites
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