Big Draw Situation

[waylander11 0]

Hand i played live 1-2NL 1. Full ring game, I have a stack of about $250 and raise to $12 with Ac Jc from middle position and cuttoff,button and both blinds call. Flop is Ad 8c 10c pot is $60both blinds check and i bet $50, guy in cutoff with about $1000 in front of him raises to $100, folds to me.This is a live 1-2 NL game so the play is generally loose passive and this player just came from another table so no read on him. My thought process in this spot is that he is most likely not reraising without at least AK, most likely A8,A10 or a set and will probably not fold to a reraise. Given that information shoving over the top of his reraise is nearly equivalent to just calling an all in for $188 into a pot of $398(60+my 50 bet+100+the rest of my $188 stack) , getting a little over 2-1. If i just call i can probably safely assume that he's going to go all in on the turn with any of the above hands and i won't see a free river card. I don't like calling here and i really don't want to fold but can i shove on the flop and hope that i might have some fold equity to make up for the not so great odds. I love to gamble in these situations but i want to know i'm making a mistake. Any corrections to my line of thought are appreciated.

[simo_8ball 0]

Snapshove. If you had >$500 the decision would be closer.

[waylander11 0]

Snapshove. If you had >$500 the decision would be closer.

what if the flop is Ad Kc 8c instead

[simo_8ball 0]

what if the flop is Ad Kc 8c instead

Even more likely to shove because I'd expect AK and KK to reraise preflop more often than AT and TT, so a set and a dominating two pair are less likely.

[river_me_this 0]

your mistake was betting on the flop. If you check the flop then your opponent will probably bet around $50 and then you can just call. At that point your not commited and can throw it away on the turn if a club or jack doesn't come.

[simo_8ball 0]

your mistake was betting on the flop. If you check the flop then your opponent will probably bet around $50 and then you can just call. At that point your not commited and can throw it away on the turn if a club or jack doesn't come.

^^That's horrible, horrible, weak tight advice.

[river_me_this 0]

ok lets say he shoves on flop and gets called by a set, two pair, or or at best AK, AQ he's at best in a race to win the pot and I know I never like to get all may money in on a race.

[simo_8ball 0]

ok lets say he shoves on flop and gets called by a set, two pair, or or at best AK, AQ he's at best in a race to win the pot and I know I never like to get all may money in on a race.

Or how about we bet the flop and get called by a flush draw. Then we hit the flush on the turn and stack a lower flush.How about we just value bet the flop and turn against a hand like A5s?Checking this flop because you are scared of monsters is terrible.

[river_me_this 0]

ok he was raised on the flop which means to me at least that the opponent does not have a flush draw or ace rag especially since he thought that the opponent would shove against a reraise or shove on the turn. so im pretty sure unless the read was wrong he has better than a draw or ace rag. im not here to get in an argument about this i usually try to mix my play up a lot and would do different things in this situation one of them being your advice but i feel in this situation I would check call then bet or check the turn especially out of posistion. Waylander what ended up happening?

[LJB723 0]

Simo speaks the truth. I get my money in here all day long. So what if we lose? We certainly haven't made any mistakes and we can reload.We have a draw to the nuts and backdoor straights too so there's not a lot of turns we don't like anyways, the money is going in. It is written.

[river_me_this 0]

I'm not saying I wouldn't shove the flop especially if I didn't care about losing the extra $200 or so. There are many different scenarios though, if this is his last reload, if he feels he has opponent crushed with, like simo said, a lower flush draw or ace rag, then we might want to slow play it especially if he has ace rag and his kicker falls on the turn giving him two pair and you a flush. There are just way to many scenarios, I think to make a just decision.

[waylander11 0]

your mistake was betting on the flop. If you check the flop then your opponent will probably bet around $50 and then you can just call. At that point your not commited and can throw it away on the turn if a club or jack doesn't come.

I'm never going to check this flop, there is a rediculous amount of value in betting here. I just think that the villain is not going to have a weak enough reraising hand here to justify reshoving on him. Online, yeah instashove, but in a live game like this its so rare that someone reraises on a draw, especially a min raise. I know shoving here is never a big mistake, i was just going over the numbers in my head and it seems closer to breakeven than i originally thought.

[river_me_this 0]

I'm never going to check this flop, there is a rediculous amount of value in betting here. I just think that the villain is not going to have a weak enough reraising hand here to justify reshoving on him. Online, yeah instashove, but in a live game like this its so rare that someone reraises on a draw, especially a min raise. I know shoving here is never a big mistake, i was just going over the numbers in my head and it seems closer to breakeven than i originally thought.

so what ended up happening?

[LJB723 0]

so what ended up happening?

Have a little patience dude. Plenty of posters who haven't chimed in yet who will want to provide an unbiased opinion, results won't allow that.If you must know pm waylander.

[ship 0]

your mistake was betting on the flop. If you check the flop then your opponent will probably bet around $50 and then you can just call. At that point your not commited and can throw it away on the turn if a club or jack doesn't come.

probably the worst advice i've seen in the last few days on any forum

[ship 0]

I'm not saying I wouldn't shove the flop especially if I didn't care about losing the extra $200 or so. There are many different scenarios though, if this is his last reload, if he feels he has opponent crushed with, like simo said, a lower flush draw or ace rag, then we might want to slow play it especially if he has ace rag and his kicker falls on the turn giving him two pair and you a flush. There are just way to many scenarios, I think to make a just decision.

after just reading the rest of your exceptionally bad replies.. i strongly beg / urge zach to instaban the fucc out of youactually, on second though, i hope people take your advice & approach the game the same way you do prior to playing in any game i'm sitting in... repeatedlyedit*

Have a little patience dude. Plenty of posters who haven't chimed in yet who will want to provide an unbiased opinion, results won't allow that.If you must know pm waylander.

and yeah, you're 100000% results oriented in your analysis of the hand... you're advocating a check (which would easily be the most retarded i've ever seen) on this board specifically because you have knowledge that the player behind him is going to raise himpoker's easy when you're watching reruns

[TrueAce13 18]

Yeah, I'm definitely looking to get the money in on this flop. As Simo saying b/c there was no reraise, you can count out AK. Now all we are worried about is a set and even in that case, we are still drawing decent. Get the money in. If he fades, reload.

[slt1der 0]

I don't think you can count out AK or AQ completely because this is a live game. It's unlikely but still possible. As played, ship it.

[Dictius 0]

I think shoving flop is the best option here. You can't fold, you are getting the odds to draw to the nut flush on the turn. You could call but then you would just have to call off the rest of your money on the turn anyway, so you might as well shove the flop.

Snapshove. If you had >$500 the decision would be closer.

What would you do with a 250BB+ stack? I think calling would clearly be better than shoving, yeah?

[BaseJester 1]

so what ended up happening?

He posted it on the internet and some newbie gave him bad advice. The End.

[river_me_this 0]

might be a newb on the forum but not in poker

[simo_8ball 0]

He posted it on the internet and some newbie gave him bad advice. The End.

LOOOOL

[simo_8ball 0]

What would you do with a 250BB+ stack? I think calling would clearly be better than shoving, yeah?

Hard to say. TPGK+NFD is a huge hand. I think I'd end up calling, but then again, that would mean my range for 3betting would be pretty much exclusively sets and two pair hands. Getting it in is rarely going to be a mistake.It depends if I think he's either good or bad enough to fold two pair, or if I think he would raise draws or air on the flop.

[NonZeroPossibility 0]

Simo knows what he's talking about. Newb, not so much... Seriously? Check the flop? With your stack, you're getting it in here. If you lost, hey bbfidts.... I just lost a $1500 pot on the Sunday playing 1/3NL live after flopping a jack high flush. Coolers happen. That is how they say "poker".I would however, expect this to be A8, AT or 88 a good amount of the time.

[David_Nicoson 1]

I'm not saying I wouldn't shove the flop especially if I didn't care about losing the extra $200 or so.

You'll find that any meaningful discussion in strategy assumes that the hero treats all dollars the same. If the hero plays the hand differently based on bankroll considerations, he's probably in deep crap and in serious danger of being run over by the villains.

There are many different scenarios though, if this is his last reload, if he feels he has opponent crushed with, like simo said, a lower flush draw or ace rag, then we might want to slow play it especially if he has ace rag and his kicker falls on the turn giving him two pair and you a flush. There are just way to many scenarios, I think to make a just decision.

The hero gives up a ton of equity if he doesn't get some money in against a willing villain who is drawing very, very slim.