Official Obama/mccain Debate Thread

[vbnautilus 48]

From what I have read the 95% figure is actually about 81%.

That's my understanding too. I think 47K is below the median income in the US, so if anyone is getting a tax cut I would think the average plumber would be. But really I wasn't trying to defend Obama's tax plan. I'm not in favor of tax increases. My point is just that "joe the plumber" is a good rhetorical device for the republican side because it sounds like a low-income job (and it is for the average plumber) but this individual makes enough that Obama has to admit his taxes will go up.

[irishguy 14]

I know most of you here think Copernicus is pretty harsh sometimes and direct. But he is 100% correct here. Obama is a very very good speaker and picks and chooses his words very carefully. He always throws the 95% number out there, but has not once said how he going to cut taxes, or what brackets will be cut and to what extent.

This is simply not true, if you looked pass the pretty way he says things he actually does deliver a message. He has answered this in debates and on his website.EDIT: did't we just have long thread about redistribution of wealth? And how many times has Obama talked about the below $250,000 bracket?

[vbnautilus 48]

He always throws the 95% number out there, but has not once said how he going to cut taxes, or what brackets will be cut and to what extent.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Facts..._Plan_FINAL.pdf

[copernicus 0]

From what I have read the 95% figure is actually about 81%. Do you really not think taxes will increase at some point if McCain gets in? There is a reason that McCain has stopped short on saying "no new taxes".

In the long run it depends on who his advisors wind up being, but I am sure he wouldnt increase tax rates until there is a full blown recovery.and 81% is bs too until he has a hard proposal.

[copernicus 0]

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Facts..._Plan_FINAL.pdf

Yeah..and where are the brackets and phase outs for the giveaways?

[vbnautilus 48]

Yeah..and where are the brackets and phase outs for the giveaways?

psshhh. who needs that when you have a nifty tax cut calculator?!http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

[copernicus 0]

psshhh. who needs that when you have a nifty tax cut calculator?!http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

yeah, im sure thats reliable

[vbnautilus 48]

yeah, im sure thats reliable

Well it tells me my household will receive a $500 tax cut. Although if I include the amount I will make from Obama due to the reverse-bradley wager I really stand to make more like $700 from his election. Still not going to change the local economy very much.

[GWCGWC 83]

The answer to many posts in this thread should simply be, you're wrong. Like it matters.The one quote I really liked by McCain last night is when he said, "I'm a Federalist."

[Loismustdie 0]

Well it tells me my household will receive a $500 tax cut. Although if I include the amount I will make from Obama due to the reverse-bradley wager I really stand to make more like $700 from his election. Still not going to change the local economy very much.

500 bucks wont mean squat when corporate taxes are rasied and jobs start dissapearing, and prices start to go up to compensate. I don't think there is a business in the entire U.S. that says,"Hey, costs are going up? Sweet, let's take it out of our profit line. We will just profit less. Sound good?" Obamas plan is dumb at best and dangerous for sure- the only thing that will happen is the middle class will start having to rely on Government more and the poor will actually, finally, have no shot whatsoever unless they can rap or do something extraordinary with some type of ball. With any luck the 9% ratings in congress will mean some turnover there and maybe nothing really gets done, that is if Obama gets elected. Polls among likely voters are still close. I know your post was joking on some level but people need to realize his plans are generally the exact opposite of what should be done, the polar opposite, what you would do if you wanted to make shit much,much worse. Give the minion what they want, though, let em rot.

[Balloon guy 158]

Pretty sure that whomever gets in will be able to say the situation is worse than he thought so he's going to have to change what he promised in his campaign.Which means you guys ain't getting your 'tax cut'but I bet my tax increase is one thing they will be able to swing.After watching this debate, I'm not sure I want either of these guys as president. Obama's ears are HUGE and McCain is kinda goofy.Another election where we get to pick the evil of two lessors.

[Balloon guy 158]

And what a stupid question the moderator posed about the negative campaigning.Come on, these are big boys, going for the big prize. Let's not pretend we should line up in a straight line and have musket volleys like gentleman.If you are running for the Pres, you figure the other guy is wrong about his issues. You point out why he's an idiot and then you say you approve of this message.What McCain should have said though was that his negativism has been about the ideas and character of Obama, while the left has been going after Palin's sex, her kids and her intelligence. They've put McCain in a white sheet, said he's too old and unhealthy. But alas, McCain never called me to help them out.

[fitzinabox 0]

Your opinion on all future topics can now easily be ignored.

so you are saying neither of the parties have lied up to this point? Both parties are just saying what you want to hear some of the time, imo. Wow, i come in to give my views on the situation and now you are going to ignore me?? LoL, open your mind sir. A lot of you should try to open up your minds a bit. Life is more enjoyable in that way.I just can't picture Obama or biden behind closed doors saying "woww, that Palin would be good, well qualified President if we lost the election and somethign was to happen to mccain.". that is just absurd

[copernicus 0]

so you are saying neither of the parties have lied up to this point? Both parties are just saying what you want to hear some of the time, imo. Wow, i come in to give my views on the situation and now you are going to ignore me?? LoL, open your mind sir. A lot of you should try to open up your minds a bit. Life is more enjoyable in that way.I just can't picture Obama or biden behind closed doors saying "woww, that Palin would be good, well qualified President if we lost the election and somethign was to happen to mccain.". that is just absurd

His point is that thiking he would lie and make his opinion appear MORE favorable than what he believes is patently absurd, not that politicians never lie.

[obizee 0]

the poor will actually, finally, have no shot whatsoever unless they can rap or do something extraordinary with some type of ball.

This is incredibly racist/predjudiced. Who are you Bill O'Reilly?Aren't you a big religious guy? Some of the stuff you spew is so mean spirited and nasty it just reminds me of all the fakes that go to church and act righteous. Copernicus and you have to be two of the most miserable people in the world, (judging from your posts). You both should go back two weeks after your posts and read them, I think you would be embarrassed over most of them, I know your mothers would be at least.

[copernicus 0]

This is incredibly racist/predjudiced. Who are you Bill O'Reilly?Aren't you a big religious guy? Some of the stuff you spew is so mean spirited and nasty it just reminds me of all the fakes that go to church and act righteous. Copernicus and you have to be two of the most miserable people in the world, (judging from your posts). You both should go back two weeks after your posts and read them, I think you would be embarrassed over most of them, I know your mothers would be at least.

not in the least. Show me one of mine you find offensive.

[brvheart 1,759]

His point is that thiking he would lie and make his opinion appear MORE favorable than what he believes is patently absurd, not that politicians never lie.

this.

[timwakefield 68]

It's funny that obama has gotten the "arrogant" label, but I think mccain is coming off very condescending when he disagrees with obama. The more strongly he disagrees the more obnoxious he gets.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/port...bama_as_elitist

[Loismustdie 0]

This is incredibly racist/predjudiced. Who are you Bill O'Reilly?Aren't you a big religious guy? Some of the stuff you spew is so mean spirited and nasty it just reminds me of all the fakes that go to church and act righteous. Copernicus and you have to be two of the most miserable people in the world, (judging from your posts). You both should go back two weeks after your posts and read them, I think you would be embarrassed over most of them, I know your mothers would be at least.

It was a joke. Racist jokes can be funny at times, I would be incredibly fake to hide that fact. So, you could actually make the case that I am the opposite of the fakes you see at Church, being that I am willing to recognize the side of me that likes darker humour and not hide it. Honesty FTW. As far as miserable, not even close. I'm one of the happiest non-medicated people you will ever meet. I just have an ultra intense aversion to stupidity, and it's running rampant right now across America.

[Balloon guy 158]

It was a joke. Racist jokes can be funny at times, I would be incredibly fake to hide that fact. So, you could actually make the case that I am the opposite of the fakes you see at Church, being that I am willing to recognize the side of me that likes darker humour and not hide it. Honesty FTW. As far as miserable, not even close. I'm one of the happiest non-medicated people you will ever meet. I just have an ultra intense aversion to stupidity, and it's running rampant right now across America.

It's not like you proposed midnight basketball in order to help the black community...

[copernicus 0]

It's not like you proposed midnight basketball in order to help the black community...

that went over my head, since white men cant jump.Like when the the mother(?) of the kid who created the $10 Obama bill with KFC, watermelon, ribs, and food stamps was confronted about them being racist symbols responded "Who says they are"?

[Loismustdie 0]

It's not like you proposed midnight basketball in order to help the black community...

Lol!! You know what's funny about that is I used to play ball, for like 6 hours a day, and I used to go to these things, and it was always a good time.

[irishguy 14]

ACORN:The stories are almost comical: Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck, registered to vote on Nov. 4. The entire starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys football team, signed up to go the polls — in Nevada.But no one in either presidential campaign is laughing. Not publicly, anyway.Republicans, led by John McCain, are alleging widespread voter fraud. The Democrats and Barack Obama say the controversy is preposterous and is just political mudslinging.In the middle is the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, known as ACORN, a grass-roots community group that has led liberal causes since it formed in 1970. This year, ACORN hired more than 13,000 part-time workers and sent them out in 21 states to sign up voters in minority and poor neighborhoods.They submitted 1.3 million registration cards to local election officials.Along the way, bogus ones appeared — signed in the names of cartoon characters, professional football players and scores of others bearing the same handwriting. And in the past few days, those phony registrations have exploded into Republican condemnations of far-ranging misconduct, and a relatively obscure community activist group took a starring role, right behind Joe the Plumber, in the final presidential debate.Looking beyond the smoke and fire, the raging argument boils down to essentially this:Is ACORN, according to McCain, perpetuating voter fraud that could be "destroying the fabric of democracy"? Or are Republicans trying to keep the disadvantaged, who tend to be Democrats, from casting ballots in a hotly contested presidential race that has drawn record numbers of new voters?By legal definition, to commit voter fraud means a person would have to present some kind of documentation at the polls — a driver's license, a phone bill or another form of ID — that bears the name of Mickey Mouse, for example. To do so risks a fine and imprisonment under state laws.Submitting fake registration cards is another matter. Local law enforcement agencies in about a dozen states are investigating fake registrations submitted by ACORN workers. Late last week, The Associated Press reported the FBI will be reviewing those cases.Accusations of stolen votes have a long history in presidential elections. In the 2000 recount debacle, Republicans claimed illegal ballots were cast. Democrats contended that legal ballots were thrown out. In 2004, when Ohio gave the presidency to George W. Bush, Democrats charged that long lines and malfunctioning machines in that state led to an inaccurate count.But in this contest, involving the first African-American in American history with a real chance at becoming president, the vitriol is particularly pointed."This is all just one big head-fake," said Tova Wang of the government watchdog group Common Cause. "What silliness this is, at this point. It's all about creating this perception that there is a tremendous problem with voter fraud in this country, and it's not true."On Friday, during a campaign appearance, Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin repeated McCain's recent claims that Obama has close ties to ACORN."You deserve to know," Palin told thousands in a park north of Cincinnati. "This group needs to learn that you here in Ohio won't let them turn the Buckeye State into the Acorn State."Obama helped represent ACORN in a successful 1995 suit against the state of Illinois, which forced enactment of the so-called motor-voter law, making it easier for people to register vote. Obama said this week that he had "nothing to do with" ACORN's massive voter registration drive.ACORN spokesman Brian Kettenring retaliated this week in a series of conference calls and interviews. "What we're seeing is the manufacture of a crisis, and attempts to smear Sen. Obama with it. It gives you an excuse should you lose or if there's a contested outcome of the election."Voter fraud is rare in the United States, according to a 2007 report by the nonpartisan Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. Based on reviews of voter fraud claims at the federal and state level, the center's report asserted most problems were caused by things like technological glitches, clerical errors or mistakes made by voters and by election officials. "It is more likely that an individual will be struck by lightning than he will impersonate another voter at the polls," the report said. Alex Keyssar, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, calls the current controversy "chapter 22 in a drama that's been going on awhile. The pattern is that nothing much ever comes from this. There have been no known cases of people voting fraudulently." "What we've seen," Keyssar said, "is sloppiness and someone's idea of a stupid joke, like registering as Donald Duck." ACORN officials have repeatedly claimed that their own quality control workers were the first to discover problematic ballots. In every state investigating bad registrations, ACORN tipped off local officials to bogus or incomplete cards, spokesman Kettenring said. Many states require that all registrations be submitted to local voting officials so that election directors are in charge of vetting problem ballots, not the groups collecting them. Part-time ACORN workers receive one day of training and are paid $8 an hour to collect signatures, according to Kettenring. He blamed bogus cards on cheating and lazy employees trying to make a buck for doing nothing. When caught, Kettenring said, those workers are fired. The group is in the process of tallying the number of bad cards ACORN flagged for election officials, he said. Kettenring said he doubted the percentage of such registrations would reach 2 percent. But Republicans say any number of fake registrations is unacceptable and could affect the November election. Signing up voters is a small part of ACORN activities. The group frequently leads challenges to minimum wage laws, predatory mortgage lending in poor and working-class neighborhoods and immigration policies. Controversy is nothing new. Its leaders are currently locked in a legal dispute stemming from allegations that the brother of the group's founder misappropriated nearly $1 million of the nonprofit's money several years ago. Since the 2004 election, ex-employees have been convicted of submitting false registrations in states including Florida and Missouri. "There are certainly problems and I don't think anyone disagrees on that," said Wang of Common Cause. "But it doesn't get reported that ACORN finds these registrations errors themselves. They flag them as being no good, but they have to turn them in anyway." "They don't get processed," she said. "And Mickey Mouse is not going to vote."

[85suited 0]

If Mickey Mouse shows up with a fake electric bill... He can vote in alot of places.... since most states dont required a valid licence

[vbnautilus 48]

If Mickey Mouse shows up with a fake electric bill... He can vote in alot of places.... since most states dont required a valid licence

This is not the first time he's tried this, either. A recent investigation found that Mickey Mouse was registered both in Orlando and in Anaheim for each of the last 35 years. The guy has been gaming the system for quite a while.