Data Mining

[Canadianpoker83 0]

Is this still a common occurence to data mind but not actually be playing at the table? Has anyone actually got their account suspended or taken away from them resently because of this on Fulltilt?

[chgocubs99 0]

Is this still a common occurence to data mind but not actually be playing at the table? Has anyone actually got their account suspended or taken away from them resently because of this on Fulltilt?

lolz

[Canadianpoker83 0]

Thanks for the help

[Fluffdog87 2]

Is this still a common occurence to data mind but not actually be playing at the table? Has anyone actually got their account suspended or taken away from them resently because of this on Fulltilt?

I'm interested about the results of this.How many of you guys that would datamine a table before you played it have changed the way you prepare for a new table?

[Snamuh 0]

Honestly I've been wondering how this has affected people's game selection. Are people still data-mining?

[rochyfish 0]

Well Brian Townsend refers to data mining 400nl tables for table selection in one of his recent videos so I assume it's ok?

[finztotheleft 0]

Some sites allow it, some do not. Last I heard, FT did and PS did not

[psujohn 0]

I'm interested about the results of this.How many of you guys that would datamine a table before you played it have changed the way you prepare for a new table?

I'm no longer datamining tables that I'm not sitting at. I don't think it's worth the risk at this point until FTP clears up their policy a bit more. Personally I don't really mind the no datamining rule but I wish they'd stop writing observed hand histories if they don't want people datamining. I think the way the situation is now you'll have the people who are active in forums stop mining and those who aren't continue. Seems kinds of odd to "punish" those who keep up with the rules.I suspect that what will come out is that the don't like people buying and importing hand histories and they'll ease up on their stance on "personal" data mining. But at the moment I don't think it's worth the risk.

[Veener Schnitz 0]

Some sites allow it, some do not. Last I heard, FT did and PS did not

full tilt doesn't allow it

[flintsword 4]

Is this still a common occurance to data mine but not actually be playing at the table? Has anyone actually gotten their account suspended or taken away from them recently because of this on Fulltilt?

I don't data mine using a computer, but will sometimes watch the game for a while before playing, and this *is* data mining but using your own brain. This is done all the time in a casino, where you size up an ongoing game before playing. Try doing that with a small PC entering hands and you will be hustled out by security pretty fast. (I have not done this but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine the reaction in a casino poker room if you are entering hand values into a computer near a table. Personally, I feel that using a computer to data mine online games before deciding to play is the act of a cheating weasel . Just my opinion and I will admit it is close to the line marked "unfair advantage" but that is my read on the practice.I play at FullTilt because their policy on this is clear: no unfair advantage. I did hear about the "advance course" on table selection by Townsend, who is hardly in a position to lecture anyone about ethical play.

[Canadianpoker83 0]

I don't data mine using a computer, but will sometimes watch the game for a while before playing, and this *is* data mining but using your own brain. This is done all the time in a casino, where you size up an ongoing game before playing. Try doing that with a small PC entering hands and you will be hustled out by security pretty fast. (I have not done this but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine the reaction in a casino poker room if you are entering hand values into a computer near a table. Personally, I feel that using a computer to data mine online games before deciding to play is the act of a cheating weasel . Just my opinion and I will admit it is close to the line marked "unfair advantage" but that is my read on the practice.I play at FullTilt because their policy on this is clear: no unfair advantage. I did hear about the "advance course" on table selection by Townsend, who is hardly in a position to lecture anyone about ethical play.

There is a big difference between playing poker online and playing in a casino. While playing at a table in a casino you will probably be playing with the same players for hours, where is online there are so many tables and people sitting down and getting up that if you are sitting at any low to mid stakes table for any long period of time then there will dozens of ppl comming in and out, so if you think you can keep track of every little thing then all the power to you. Also datamining is not an unfair advantage, because the software that allows you to do so is avalable to anyone that wants to pay for it. I do understand that not everyone can afford this software but if that's the case, and you're not into poker to make money and you are just looking to have fun, then sites like Fulltilt and Pokerstars do offer alot of Play money tables where knowone is datamining. What about loading hand histories into programs like PT on tables that you played at?. Do you feel that is an unfair advantage?

[psujohn 0]

Personally, I feel that using a computer to data mine online games before deciding to play is the act of a cheating weasel . Just my opinion and I will admit it is close to the line marked "unfair advantage" but that is my read on the practice.

Comparing ethics of b&m and online poker isn't going to get you very far. The simply have different rules. For instance there's no "one player to a hand" rule in online poker. The line on what is ok and what isn't is draw by the rules of the site. So if the site says datamining is fine then it's fine. If they say it's forbidden then going around their rules/procedures to datamine is unethical.Full Tilt in the past seemed to have a policy which allowed datamining. They've since changed/clarified their policy to disallow it. People who datamined in the past under the presumption that it was allowed did nothing unethical. Those who know that the rules have changed and continue to datamine are doing something unethical.You should know that most sites (stars and FTP at least) explicitly allow you to use PT and similar programs. To claim that using them is unethical when the site rules says you can is simply ignorant.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Comparing ethics of b&m and online poker isn't going to get you very far. The simply have different rules. For instance there's no "one player to a hand" rule in online poker. The line on what is ok and what isn't is draw by the rules of the site. So if the site says datamining is fine then it's fine. If they say it's forbidden then going around their rules/procedures to datamine is unethical.Full Tilt in the past seemed to have a policy which allowed datamining. They've since changed/clarified their policy to disallow it. People who datamined in the past under the presumption that it was allowed did nothing unethical. Those who know that the rules have changed and continue to datamine are doing something unethical.You should know that most sites (stars and FTP at least) explicitly allow you to use PT and similar programs. To claim that using them is unethical when the site rules says you can is simply ignorant.

This.

[Merby 3]

I don't data mine using a computer, but will sometimes watch the game for a while before playing, and this *is* data mining but using your own brain. This is done all the time in a casino, where you size up an ongoing game before playing. Try doing that with a small PC entering hands and you will be hustled out by security pretty fast. (I have not done this but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine the reaction in a casino poker room if you are entering hand values into a computer near a table. Personally, I feel that using a computer to data mine online games before deciding to play is the act of a cheating weasel . Just my opinion and I will admit it is close to the line marked "unfair advantage" but that is my read on the practice.I play at FullTilt because their policy on this is clear: no unfair advantage. I did hear about the "advance course" on table selection by Townsend, who is hardly in a position to lecture anyone about ethical play.

Unfortunately, this bolded statement is the crux of the problem. Full Tilt used to condone data mining (or at least would always look the other way while it happened). Recently, they have altered their policies to no longer condone this:

The use of shared hand history databases is prohibitedPlayers may not use databases that include hand histories from hands that they did not personally participate in. This includes large subscription databases, and "hand swapping" with other players. Players who use such databases are deemed to be gaining an unfair advantage over their opponents and will have their accounts closed permanently. Any outstanding balance in their account will be forfeited and used to compensate the victims.Database programs that track information from a player's personal hand history (i.e. hands in which they have been dealt cards) are permitted.

(Reference: http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/de/prohibited_programs.php)They did not make it very well known that this had changed: I received no email, there was no pop-up message warning me, etc. It was only through reading a post on 4 (I think) that I became aware of their change in policy. Furthermore, although the policy has been changed, they have not changed their software to prevent HHs from getting recorded on your computer *even* if you weren't dealt in the hand (like Stars). So for example, if I'm playing at one table, and want to rail a friend at another table (a common occurrence), I will get HHs recorded from both my table *AND* his table. If I have a tracking software (PT, HEM, etc) importing my HHs, it will also import the HHs from my friend's table, which is now against the rules.Full Tilt has decided to change their regulations, but have made no effort to prevent HHs from getting recorded on a player's computer if they weren't dealt in the hand. This will force players to have to go to extreme lengths to *AVOID* breaking the rules rather than the other way around. If you are going to create a new rule, you should really make it difficult/inconvenient to break that rule and easy to follow it, rather than making it difficult to follow and easy to break.

[Largetotals 0]

Unfortunately, this bolded statement is the crux of the problem. Full Tilt used to condone data mining (or at least would always look the other way while it happened). Recently, they have altered their policies to no longer condone this:(Reference: http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/de/prohibited_programs.php)They did not make it very well known that this had changed: I received no email, there was no pop-up message warning me, etc. It was only through reading a post on 4 (I think) that I became aware of their change in policy. Furthermore, although the policy has been changed, they have not changed their software to prevent HHs from getting recorded on your computer *even* if you weren't dealt in the hand (like Stars). So for example, if I'm playing at one table, and want to rail a friend at another table (a common occurrence), I will get HHs recorded from both my table *AND* his table. If I have a tracking software (PT, HEM, etc) importing my HHs, it will also import the HHs from my friend's table, which is now against the rules.Full Tilt has decided to change their regulations, but have made no effort to prevent HHs from getting recorded on a player's computer if they weren't dealt in the hand. This will force players to have to go to extreme lengths to *AVOID* breaking the rules rather than the other way around. If you are going to create a new rule, you should really make it difficult/inconvenient to break that rule and easy to follow it, rather than making it difficult to follow and easy to break.

not to sound uppity but condone means frown upon or not approve of.. where as it looks to me like your trying to use it as a way of implying FT let you or liked you to do so..just sayin' is all..

[BaseJester 1]

not to sound uppity but condone means frown upon or not approve of.. where as it looks to me like your trying to use it as a way of implying FT let you or liked you to do so..just sayin' is all..

Dictionarycon·done /kənˈdoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-dohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -doned, -don·ing.1.to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).2.to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.3.to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse. 4.to cause the condonation of. 5.Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow).

[MakingMusic 0]

not to sound uppity but condone means frown upon or not approve of.. where as it looks to me like your trying to use it as a way of implying FT let you or liked you to do so..just sayin' is all..

con·done /kənˈdoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-dohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -doned, -don·ing. 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like). 2. to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior. 3. to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse. 4. to cause the condonation of. 5. Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow). condone. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Retrieved October 07, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/condoneDamn, I'm slow, lol.

[Merby 3]

Dictionarycon·done /kənˈdoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-dohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object), -doned, -don·ing.1.to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).2.to give tacit approval to: By his silence, he seemed to condone their behavior.3.to pardon or forgive (an offense); excuse. 4.to cause the condonation of. 5.Law. to forgive or act so as to imply forgiveness of (a violation of the marriage vow).

I was using 'condone' as listed in definition #2.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

full tilt doesn't allow it

Since when? When I used to play on FTP, I data mined all day when I was at school and work.

[whatgreatis 0]

You can data mine on Absolute.

[Naismith 0]

In case anyone is interested, I e-mailed FTP a few weeks back about this. I feel like they didn't give me a clear answer, but there were so many words, I couldn't be expected to read it all. Their response is first:-------------Hello Jay,Thank you for your inquiry.Statistical tracking programs and web-based services for online poker have become increasingly common in recent years. As a result, there are several programs and websites that provide this type of information in a way that is, unfortunately, out of our control.Initially, these programs simply allowed you to analyze your play by providing statistics on your own hand histories. When used in this manner, we see these programs as a useful tool for improving your game.However, some of these programs now come pre-loaded with hundreds of thousands of hand histories that the developers have obtained in one of the following ways:* By buying them outright from players. While we do not support this activity, we cannot stop players from selling hand histories. The files are stored on their computers, and they are free to do as they choose with them.* By collecting them through the use of automated tools. We find this "data mining" technique unethical as it allows the user to access hand history information without investing any rake or time at the tables.In summary, we do not support the above methods of collecting data and are constantly working to prevent uninvolved parties from gathering hand history information. We share your concern and appreciate you bringing this to our attention. The vigilance of our players is our greatest tool in fighting unethical behavior at Full Tilt Poker. Good luck at the tables, and if there's anything else we can help you with, please let us know.Regards,Aaron MPoker SpecialistFull Tilt Poker Support----------------------------------------------------------------------Please remember never to give out your password or enteraccount details over the Internet. Full Tilt Poker staff willnever ask you for your password. For your security, alwayskeep this information a secret.Learn, Chat, and Play with the Pros at Full Tilt Poker----------------------------------------------------------------------Original Message Follows: ------------------------ I have copied and pasted a section from the prohibited programs section below. This states that no part of our hand history database can include hands we did not participate in. I do not engage in datamining, nor have I ever purchased a database from someone, however when I am watching the high stakes games or watching a friend play, Full Tilt automatically saves the hand histories to my computer which then adds them to my database. In fact, I would safely say that every single player that uses poker tracking software has hand histories in their database that they did not participate in.Again, I want to emphasize that this is strictly from normal viewing of games, not from trying to amass data.Can you please clarify the rule?"Players may not use databases that include hand histories from hands that they did not personally participate in. This includes large subscription databases, and "hand swapping" with other players. Players who use such databases are deemed to be gaining an unfair advantage over their opponents and will have their accounts closed permanently. Any outstanding balance in their account will be forfeited and used to compensate the victims.Database programs that track information from a player's personal hand history (i.e. hands in which they have been dealt cards) are permitted."

[Snamuh 0]

Unfortunately that response still leaves it unclear as to whether a person can data mine for game selection purposes. The message seems to indicate that this is not allowed, but the rule itself seems to be emphasized more towards the mass miners that sell information.

[Fluffdog87 2]

Unfortunately that response still leaves it unclear as to whether a person can data mine for game selection purposes. The message seems to indicate that this is not allowed, but the rule itself seems to be emphasized more towards the mass miners that sell information.

These are my thoughts on ftp's e-mail as well and why this is still a little difficult to understand.

[king1305 0]

It seems to me that if you just open 18 tables and leave, come back later, it should be okay?As long as you don't buy them from other people or use a program that keeps opening tables for you so you are always datamining 18 full tables you are fine?

[fatman 1]

Unfortunately that response still leaves it unclear as to whether a person can data mine for game selection purposes. The message seems to indicate that this is not allowed, but the rule itself seems to be emphasized more towards the mass miners that sell information.

These are my thoughts on ftp's e-mail as well and why this is still a little difficult to understand.

QFT