Gay Marriage

[copernicus 0]

Another good approach would be to disassociate homosexuality from trans-genderism. Sexual orientation is one thing. Sexual identification is another. Society believes that transgenders are truly mentally ill. Homos suffer from "guilt by association" by aligning themselves with this group. I've always wondered why they did that.

Because they believe they have a "common enemy"

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Because they believe they have a "common enemy"

people like you?

[vbnautilus 48]

I wasn't saying that if your mom is gay then you will be gay, but rather that you are born gay.

I know what you were saying. It's the prevailing belief right now but it's not well supported by evidence. Maybe you're not getting the significance of the twin studies. Identical twins are the same at birth. So if one ends up gay and the other straight, it must be because of things that happen after birth.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Maybe you're not getting the significance of the twin studies. Identical twins are the same at birth. So if one ends up gay and the other straight, it must be because of things that happen after birth.

Or in the womb

[Sheiky 0]

Not allowing gay marriage is to me like the other social barriers we've come across over the past 2 centuries. If people had the internet a century ago, they would have been arguing over whether women should get the vote or whether blacks should sit on the same bus as whites. At the time it would seem like it would be really odd for it to change as it was so normal everyone just took it for granted, but 40 years later everyone looks back and thinks 'wtf were those people thinking, of course women should be allowed to vote! And why shouldn't blacks sit on the same bus as whites? Were we really that ignorant and prejidous?'

[vbnautilus 48]

Or in the womb

But they share the same womb. So you'd have to argue that say hormones were different enough on one side of the womb or that they had different experiences based on their position in the womb to account for half the variance in sexual orientation. It's a bit of a stretch imo.Also, given that we know that experiences during sexual development can influence sexual behavior and preferences later in life, it's hard to ignore the other factors.

[Jeepster80125 0]

But they share the same womb. So you'd have to argue that say hormones were different enough on one side of the womb or that they had different experiences based on their position in the womb to account for half the variance in sexual orientation. It's a bit of a stretch imo.Also, given that we know that experiences during sexual development can influence sexual behavior and preferences later in life, it's hard to ignore the other factors.

I'm surprised trauma and abuse haven't been offered up as reasons for teh gheyness.

[vbnautilus 48]

I'm surprised trauma and abuse haven't been offered up as reasons for teh gheyness.

Childhood sexual abuse is reported at higher rates in male homosexuals compared to male heterosexuals, but its just a correlation and hard to know which causes which.

[cwjones14 0]

God is your thing, not eveyone's thing. Keep it that way.I think the the converse to that is God is not your thing, I am aware of that keep it to yourself? Just to let you know there is still freedom of speech in this country as well as freedom of religon ( ie.. your free to not have it and those of us who choose a relationship with The Creator of the Universe are free to voice it and express it) . When discussing a topic such as this, these fundamental precepts must be kept in mind. As to the topic, I think the healthiest environment is for a child to have mother and father for support. Obviously men and women are created with different characteristics that are both necessary for the health of a child. This is the way God established marriage, which by the way was well before there was even a church to seperate from government. I realize that unfortunately, our orphanges are full with children and not enough interested parents to adopt them. This is an are that as a Christian I think that the church has fallen way short. Jesus said that this is pure religion, to care for widows, orphans, and the poor. This is where it saddens me that government should even have to get involved. The church should step forth, get off our soap boxes and show this country the Love that Christ has shown us, and is ready to show others through us. I am trying to do this myself as I just took in a 16 year old that needed help. Small step but at least a first.

[over-it 0]

Maybe you're not getting the significance of the twin studies. Identical twins are the same at birth. So if one ends up gay and the other straight, it must be because of things that happen after birth.

Well it certainly is a debatable topic, and I'm sure neither you or I are going to come to any groundbreaking revelation. As my username suggests, I'm over it.

[timwakefield 68]

I know what you were saying. It's the prevailing belief right now but it's not well supported by evidence. Maybe you're not getting the significance of the twin studies. Identical twins are the same at birth. So if one ends up gay and the other straight, it must be because of things that happen after birth.

Your conclusion is the exact opposite of what I would have concluded (and yes I have read some of the studies). Seems to me that if one ends up gay and the other straight, they must have been born that way since they grew up in the exact same environment, often in the same room. The idea that one single experience could make somebody gay for life is bizarre to me. Change 'one single experience' to 'five different experiences' and I still don't believe it. One of the studies I read talked about how the mother could tell from a very young age that one of her sons was different, and that from the age of 5 or something he was into girly things. Obviously he was the gay one.Just because they have the same DNA doesn't mean their bodies are identical. They're certainly not.

[El Guapo 8]

VB can you post links to research done on the genetic or chemical test done on homosexuality?Personally I believe that a good percentage of homosexuals are by choice, maybe even subconscious, as our society has made it more acceptable and more media shows homosexuality in a positive light, I think a certain amount of the gay community is their by choice because they are accepted. There are some that were molested or sexually abused/raped and have deep seeded issue and somehow find solace in the gay community.The people who are not gay by choice, I have always felt that is was a chemical or hormonal imbalance. Except for my own personally reasoning I have no evidence of this. But my thought process is, biologically we are produced to procreate to keep our species alive, there is no sign of us becoming asexual, so to procreate we still have to have a man and woman have sex. Our libido for lack or a better term is what drives us to our sexual urges, which at an animalistic level is us trying to procreate. So for the main functionality of our survival to not be in some of us, that says to me their has to be a hormonal or chemical difference in those people. Maybe on a DNA level (not you Alan, although you do like pretty gay) there is a closer tie between the sexes in overt homosexuals.I don't even know what tests have been run on this, if any.With that being said, none of that has anything to do with whether or not I think it is ok to be gay or marriage.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Personally I believe that a good percentage of homosexuals are by choice, maybe even subconscious, as our society has made it more acceptable and more media shows homosexuality in a positive light, I think a certain amount of the gay community is their by choice because they are accepted.

I would respectfully disagree with this. Mostly the "good percentage" part. True homosexuals did not choose to gay, just as you didnt choose to be straight.

There are some that were molested or sexually abused/raped and have deep seeded issue and somehow find solace in the gay community.

From what my professors have told me, sexual abuse does not turn people gay. It may confuse them, and they may experiment with homosexuality, but they arent truly homosexual and with proper self analysis they will understand that.

[timwakefield 68]

Personally I believe that a good percentage of homosexuals are by choice, maybe even subconscious, as our society has made it more acceptable and more media shows homosexuality in a positive light, I think a certain amount of the gay community is their by choice because they are accepted. There are some that were molested or sexually abused/raped and have deep seeded issue and somehow find solace in the gay community.

Personal beliefs are all well and good, but you are mistaken. The reason you imagine that the 'gay community' is larger than it used to be is because they are no longer afraid to tell people, or to hide in the closet.Also the suggestion that molestation or sexual abuse leads to homosexuality is something that I've never heard evidence for. Being molested as a child often causes that child to grow up to be an abuser. I've heard no legit studies that find it leads one to be gay. Also worth noting is that the vast majority of children who are sexually abused/raped are female. If anything, I would say that there are a helluva lot more gay people pretending (to themselves even) that they are straight, than there are straight people who are pretending they are gay.

[El Guapo 8]

I would respectfully disagree with this. Mostly the "good percentage" part. True homosexuals did not choose to gay, just as you didnt choose to be straight.From what my professors have told me, sexual abuse does not turn people gay. It may confuse them, and they may experiment with homosexuality, but they arent truly homosexual and with proper self analysis they will understand that.

I agree with both statements, I may have not expressed myself coherently. Good percentage to me is 20ish, but I am completely pulling that out of my ass.

Personal beliefs are all well and good, but you are mistaken. The reason you imagine that the 'gay community' is larger than it used to be is because they are no longer afraid to tell people, or to hide in the closet.Also the suggestion that molestation or sexual abuse leads to homosexuality is something that I've never heard evidence for. Being molested as a child often causes that child to grow up to be an abuser. I've heard no legit studies that find it leads one to be gay. Also worth noting is that the vast majority of children who are sexually abused/raped are female. If anything, I would say that there are a helluva lot more gay people pretending (to themselves even) that they are straight, than there are straight people who are pretending they are gay.

I don't know of any evidence either. But that is what I was asking VB for. And I don't think there are many people who are pretending to be gay, I think they are confused for a myriad of reasons.

[vbnautilus 48]

Your conclusion is the exact opposite of what I would have concluded (and yes I have read some of the studies). Seems to me that if one ends up gay and the other straight, they must have been born that way since they grew up in the exact same environment, often in the same room. The idea that one single experience could make somebody gay for life is bizarre to me. Change 'one single experience' to 'five different experiences' and I still don't believe it. One of the studies I read talked about how the mother could tell from a very young age that one of her sons was different, and that from the age of 5 or something he was into girly things. Obviously he was the gay one.Just because they have the same DNA doesn't mean their bodies are identical. They're certainly not.

The environment is only exactly the same up until they are born. Once they are born they have different experiences depending on the choices they make and how the environment responds to them. Identical twins often grow apart as a result of experience, but at birth they are virtually identical. Certainly it can't be genetics that differentiates them, since they are genetically identical. So what is it?

[vbnautilus 48]

I would respectfully disagree with this. Mostly the "good percentage" part. True homosexuals did not choose to gay, just as you didnt choose to be straight.From what my professors have told me, sexual abuse does not turn people gay. It may confuse them, and they may experiment with homosexuality, but they arent truly homosexual and with proper self analysis they will understand that.

This false dichotomy I think has kind of poisoned the discussion on this issue. ( I'm speaking in general here, not about you or this particular conversation). The options are not simply "they are born that way" vs. "they chose it". (The argument for born-that-way is often "who would choose that?"). There is a whole variety of room in between these extremes. Let me paint out a hypothetical example here for the kind of complex interaction between genes, social factors, and choice that could give rise to sexual orientation. I'm just making this up as a hypothetical to illustrate the general framework, so I'm by no means defending this as the way it happens. Totally fictional. Let's say Jim has a gene which codes for a protein that influences neurotransmission in a certain part of the brain, say the hypothalamus. Individuals with this gene might grow probabilistically fewer norepinephrine receptors in the hypothalamus, which say is involved in inhibiting physiological reactions to socially stressful events. Thus a person with hypo-activity in this brain region may be more likely to avoid socially charged situations because they don't like the strong physiological responses it gives their body. This in turn makes Jim more likely to find himself in socially submissive roles. Now, Jim's identical twin brother Randy has the same gene. However, one day Randy is walking home from school and sees his brother Jim being picked on by the neighborhood bullies. He gets angry and intervenes to save his brother. This experience sets off a chain reaction in Randy. First of all, the surge of testosterone leads to an up-regulation of the receptor he is low on in his hypothalamus, making him more likely to take dominant positions like this again in the future. Secondly, a cute girl standing nearby notices this display and becomes attracted to Randy, perhaps giggling at him or otherwise communicating her affection, which is noticed by Randy and associated with the surge in testosterone he felt and enjoyed. Jim on the other hand becomes more reclusive and spends most of his time reading books in the woods until one day he accidentally discovers the pleasure that can be had by masturbation. In a defining moment for his young physiology this never before experienced surge of hormones and neurotransmitters coursing through his body while he inhales the scent of bark and sap. This becomes a daily ritual for Jim while his brother is out playing baseball. Fast-forward to adolescence Jim finds that he is not as interested in girls as his brother is. He'd prefer to be in the woods. While Randy is starting go on dates with girls, Jim doesn't want to be bothered. At some point Jim finds a group of people on the internet who call themselves "dendrophiles". They describe themselves as lovers of nature and embrace their identity and believe it is a healthy alternative lifestyle. In fact none of them believe they "chose" to be dendrophiles, they just find themselves attracted to trees in the same way that other guys are attracted to girls. Why would anyone choose to be a dendrophile? Jim struggles with this for some time. This can't be right! He tries dating girls but isn't really satisfied. Eventually he comes to terms with his dendrophilic self and comes out to his parents and friends, who are initially shocked, but ultimately accept him for who he is. He moves to Portland to be part of the nation's largest dendrophilic community. Identical twins, one straight, one dendrophilic.Again, this is an intentional caricature just to illustrate how something like a gene can interact with choices, culture, environment, relationships, etc to influence something as complex as sexual identity. (Although there are dendrophiles and in most cases it can be traced back to early sexual experiences in the vicinity of trees.)

[vbnautilus 48]

VB can you post links to research done on the genetic or chemical test done on homosexuality?

Well there's quite a body of literature on this stuff. If you have a more specific question I can provide more specific literature. The genetics studies in the past 15 year or so have been focused on linkages relating to the X chromosome, following a 1993 science paper that found certain markers on that chromosome associated (not in a deterministic way) with sexual orientation in men. The other focus of recent research relates to birth order effects; boys who are born with older brothers are more likely to be homosexual. This finding has spawned a whole bunch of research into the hormonal changes the womb environment goes through in having successive children, and also of the experiences associated with having an older brother (which makes it more likely that your brother will "experiment" with you or teach you sexual things). It's very hard to tease these things apart. Sexual orientation in women appears to be a whole different ball of wax.

[El Guapo 8]

Well there's quite a body of literature on this stuff. If you have a more specific question I can provide more specific literature. The genetics studies in the past 15 year or so have been focused on linkages relating to the X chromosome, following a 1993 science paper that found certain markers on that chromosome associated (not in a deterministic way) with sexual orientation in men. The other focus of recent research relates to birth order effects; boys who are born with older brothers are more likely to be homosexual. This finding has spawned a whole bunch of research into the hormonal changes the womb environment goes through in having successive children, and also of the experiences associated with having an older brother (which makes it more likely that your brother will "experiment" with you or teach you sexual things). It's very hard to tease these things apart. Sexual orientation in women appears to be a whole different ball of wax.

Hmmm. How about you take a few minutes or so and break it down so some who is an idiot when it comes to siencey things (ME) can understand it. If you don't mind.

[timwakefield 68]

The environment is only exactly the same up until they are born. Once they are born they have different experiences depending on the choices they make and how the environment responds to them. Identical twins often grow apart as a result of experience, but at birth they are virtually identical. Certainly it can't be genetics that differentiates them, since they are genetically identical. So what is it?

I dunno, but you can also be sure from these studies that "molestation" isn't the cause with identical twins. Unless of course there was one twin who was molested and one who wasn't, which is not only very unlikely, but the unlikelihood of that pales in comparison to the unlikelihood that had this happened it would not have been determined to be a factor and thus mentioned and explained as the answer.

[vbnautilus 48]

I dunno, but you can also be sure from these studies that "molestation" isn't the cause with identical twins. Unless of course there was one twin who was molested and one who wasn't, which is not only very unlikely, but the unlikelihood of that pales in comparison to the unlikelihood that had this happened it would not have been determined to be a factor and thus mentioned and explained as the answer.

huhmost confusing sentence of the day award! I think my main point is that most probably there is not any single thing which counts as "the" cause. It seems to me to be a very complicated interaction among a myriad of factors which all contribute to the likelihood of someone being gay.

[Sal Paradise 57]

Also the suggestion that molestation or sexual abuse leads to homosexuality is something that I've never heard evidence for. Being molested as a child often causes that child to grow up to be an abuser. I've heard no legit studies that find it leads one to be gay. Also worth noting is that the vast majority of children who are sexually abused/raped are female.

yeah I've never heard of any evidence that says that sexual abuse makes a person more likely to be homosexual. it definitely increases the chances that they end up in a thread started by specbrad, but I doubt it increases their chances of being gay.

[vbnautilus 48]

yeah I've never heard of any evidence that says that sexual abuse makes a person more likely to be homosexual. it definitely increases the chances that they end up in a thread started by specbrad, but I doubt it increases their chances of being gay.

Again, the evidence does indeed show a higher incidence of sexual abuse among gay men than among straight men¹. We don't know which causes which. It may also not be "abuse" but sexual contact, for example with brothers or friends. Early sexual experiences can have an "imprinting" effect. ¹Arreola, S. G., Neilands, T. B., Pollack, L. M., Paul, J. P. & Catania, J. A. (2005) Higher prevalence of childhood sexual abuse among Latino men who have sex with men than non-Latino men who have sex with men: data from the Urban Men’s Health Study. Child Abuse and Neglect 29, 285–290. Garcia, J., Adams, J., Friedman, L. & East, P. (2002) Links between past abuse, suicide ideation and sexual orientation among San Diego college students. Journal of American College Health 51, 9–14. Tomeo, M. E., Templer, D. I., Anderson, S. & Kotler, D. (2001) Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior 30, 535–541. Rind, B., Tromovitch, P. & Bauserman, R. (1998) A meta-analytic examination of child sexual abuse using college samples. Psychological Bulletin 124, 22–53. Lenderking, W. R., Wold, C., Mayer, K. H., Goldstein, R., Losina, E. & Seage, G. R. (1997) Childhood sexual abuse among homosexual men. Prevalence and association with unsafe sex. Journal of General Internal Medicine 12, 250–253. Beitchman, J. H., Zucker, K. J., Hood, J. E., Da Costa, G. A. & Akman, S. (1991) A review of the short term effects of child sexual abuse. Child Abuse and Neglect 15, 537–556.

[timwakefield 68]

huhmost confusing sentence of the day award!

I considered revising it at least twice, then figured that what I was trying to say would be obvious (which I think it was), but I still gladly accept the award. I would like to thank [music begins playing], ok well thank you everybody, you know who you are!To say it more clearly though: It seems reasonably unlikely that there are many cases where one identical twin is abused sexually in some way that the other is not. It is almost entirely unlikely that, in any of the cases that have been studied about sexuality in identical twins, the gay twin had been molested and the straight one had not. If there was even a hint of such a thing I feel like it would be pounced on as the 'answer to gayness.'

[copernicus 0]

people like you?

??? because of my stance on adoption? I still say thats a minor issue. I dont see many gay couple clamoring for adoption. Of course maybe you anticipated my next post.