Playing To Win Or Not To Bubble

[dabetka 0]

I know that almost everyone who plays tourney poker for a living will say that they are playing to win and take advantage when the bubble comes up of scared money. I am trying to figure out how to be most profitable playing sng's. I will go into my story:About 2-3 yrs ago, I had my wife put in 50 bones on stars (I had deposited and withdrawn from stars/ppoker before) I played mainly 12 dollar sng's until I had a 1200+ bankroll. I play for fun/competition and it seems that I have to have some kind of money involved to make me take it seriously. I than got bored with sng's and played cash, was playing around even for quite a while until I took a shot at hu nl and plo. I ran horrid, seemed like I lost every coinflip and lowered my br to about 500 and then tried to make it up at turbo sng's and am down to about $300. I know I should have stopped with the cash games, but I figured I could always get back with sng's fairly easily. Now, I have been hovering around the $300 level for a month or so playing the $12 6man sngs and am having trouble trying to decide how to play when it gets down to 3-4 guys and blinds are high. I have been trying not to worry about the bubble and just playing to win, but have been bubbling 3rd and 4th a TON lately, which gets very old. When I was playing the sng's before and doing well, it seemed like I played to make the money, not to win, and occasionally I would get 1st instead of 2nd. As I have done more and more reading it seems like that is not the best approach, the best being to try to win. Now I am at the point where my br is small enough that I need to be careful. I guess, I don't really need the money, but my ultimate goal is to build up again and be able to take shots at satelites for wsop/wcoop and those kinda things. So I guess my ultimate question is, is the best way to do this by not worrying about making the top 2 and playing for the win or do I need to be more concerned with just moneying for the long run?

[chgocubs99 0]

win

[I_fold08 1]

I know that almost everyone who plays tourney poker for a living will say that they are playing to win and take advantage when the bubble comes up of scared money. I am trying to figure out how to be most profitable playing sng's. I will go into my story:About 2-3 yrs ago, I had my wife put in 50 bones on stars (I had deposited and withdrawn from stars/ppoker before) I played mainly 12 dollar sng's until I had a 1200+ bankroll. I play for fun/competition and it seems that I have to have some kind of money involved to make me take it seriously. I than got bored with sng's and played cash, was playing around even for quite a while until I took a shot at hu nl and plo. I ran horrid, seemed like I lost every coinflip and lowered my br to about 500 and then tried to make it up at turbo sng's and am down to about $300. I know I should have stopped with the cash games, but I figured I could always get back with sng's fairly easily. Now, I have been hovering around the $300 level for a month or so playing the $12 6man sngs and am having trouble trying to decide how to play when it gets down to 3-4 guys and blinds are high. I have been trying not to worry about the bubble and just playing to win, but have been bubbling 3rd and 4th a TON lately, which gets very old. When I was playing the sng's before and doing well, it seemed like I played to make the money, not to win, and occasionally I would get 1st instead of 2nd. As I have done more and more reading it seems like that is not the best approach, the best being to try to win. Now I am at the point where my br is small enough that I need to be careful. I guess, I don't really need the money, but my ultimate goal is to build up again and be able to take shots at satelites for wsop/wcoop and those kinda things. So I guess my ultimate question is, is the best way to do this by not worrying about making the top 2 and playing for the win or do I need to be more concerned with just moneying for the long run?

I usually raise a lot more hands when it gets down to that point, but you have to be cautious of stack sizes, and know who else is playing to cash, plus you have to be able to call in iffy spots with pot odds n such

[Suited_Up 2]

In SnG's especially, people let you push them around on the bubble. Take advantage of that. If for some reason that's not happening, then adjust, but more times than not, you should be able to get lots of chips.

[dabetka 0]

I usually raise a lot more hands when it gets down to that point, but you have to be cautious of stack sizes, and know who else is playing to cash, plus you have to be able to call in iffy spots with pot odds n such

Thx for the good info. The raising more hands is probly something I def. need to do. I don't know if maybe the play at these levels has gotten better in the last couple yrs too? It seems like I see A LOT more guys at the tables with the fpp stars on their avatars than I used to see. I think its probably also important to take an approach and stick with it, not play to win at one table and just to money in the other... if that makes any sense?

[magnus72 0]

Seems to me if you play to not bubble you are going to be out not long after the bubble anyways.In your case its a little different since only the top two cash, but if you play for second all the time where is the fun in that?

[dabetka 0]

Seems to me if you play to not bubble you are going to be out not long after the bubble anyways.In your case its a little different since only the top two cash, but if you play for second all the time where is the fun in that?

Your probly right, and def. right about the fun in playing for 2. But, it seems like I'm at the point where losing my 13 bones hurts a lot more now than when I had more $. So, I am aware of that and probably don't play to my best potential because of it sometimes....and I really don't want to move down and grind the $6 sngs, I think I would rather slit my wrists and and/or die in a firery auto crash than do those again.

[GWCGWC 83]

6 man sng's = play to cash

[dabetka 0]

6 man sng's = play to cash

Thats different from what the other guys said, what is your reasoning I guess?

[Neutron1980 0]

I don't think there's a set answer to your question. I think you have to play according to the people at your table. If you think you can push them around a bit do it, but there's no shame in being an armadillo now and again.

[GWCGWC 83]

Thats different from what the other guys said, what is your reasoning I guess?

I'm not sure the other dude understood these are 6 man sng's. What I meant was that cashing is crucial in sng's to maintain a decent roi. Usually just playing to get top two will put you in a position to win. When it's down to three you should have an idea how the other two players are going to react to raises from the bubble and what their gambling threshold is. It's more difficult to figure out in a turbo, which is all I'd play. There are so many situations that dictate a clear call/fold/push when down to 3 players. You base this on position, chip stack, cards and player tendencies. Almost exclusively in that order. That's about as basic as I can put it. With all the resources available about sng's on the interweb, you'd do better to buy a book than to ask such a broad question to gen poker. If you listed a more narrow question in strat, I'm sure you'd get better answers. Something like this:blinds at 100/200 25 anteI'm on the button with 2400 chips and get Qs10ssb has 1200bb has 5400the sb seems to be playing very tight and the bb seems willing to defend his bb with a wide range. Should I be folding or raising in this position?this is a clear fold

[grocery_mony 8]

cashing is crucial in sit and gos but so is bubble play. For me since I dont play any more than 4 tables it comes down to feel. If everyone else is playing to cash I open up quite a bit. But if there is alot of restealing going on a deffinatly tighten up. Also deffinaty work on heads up play. I find alot of players leave alot of money on the table with there heads up play.

[Snamuh 0]

I'm not sure the other dude understood these are 6 man sng's. What I meant was that cashing is crucial in sng's to maintain a decent roi. Usually just playing to get top two will put you in a position to win. When it's down to three you should have an idea how the other two players are going to react to raises from the bubble and what their gambling threshold is. It's more difficult to figure out in a turbo, which is all I'd play. There are so many situations that dictate a clear call/fold/push when down to 3 players. You base this on position, chip stack, cards and player tendencies. Almost exclusively in that order. That's about as basic as I can put it. With all the resources available about sng's on the interweb, you'd do better to buy a book than to ask such a broad question to gen poker. If you listed a more narrow question in strat, I'm sure you'd get better answers. Something like this:blinds at 100/200 25 anteI'm on the button with 2400 chips and get Qs10ssb has 1200bb has 5400the sb seems to be playing very tight and the bb seems willing to defend his bb with a wide range. Should I be folding or raising in this position?this is a clear fold

Easy raise imo.

[dabetka 0]

If you listed a more narrow question in strat, I'm sure you'd get better answers. I guess my main question was what would be more profitbable and trying to rebuild my bankroll for the long run? I know that if I play to money (top 2), I will get chances to win but more than likely with less chips, but would have a better chance at winning with play down to 3-4 by not worrying about moneying, just playing only to win...

[dereeekho 0]

I'm not sure the other dude understood these are 6 man sng's. What I meant was that cashing is crucial in sng's to maintain a decent roi. Usually just playing to get top two will put you in a position to win. When it's down to three you should have an idea how the other two players are going to react to raises from the bubble and what their gambling threshold is. It's more difficult to figure out in a turbo, which is all I'd play. There are so many situations that dictate a clear call/fold/push when down to 3 players. You base this on position, chip stack, cards and player tendencies. Almost exclusively in that order. That's about as basic as I can put it. With all the resources available about sng's on the interweb, you'd do better to buy a book than to ask such a broad question to gen poker. If you listed a more narrow question in strat, I'm sure you'd get better answers. Something like this:blinds at 100/200 25 anteI'm on the button with 2400 chips and get Qs10ssb has 1200bb has 5400the sb seems to be playing very tight and the bb seems willing to defend his bb with a wide range. Should I be folding or raising in this position?this is a clear fold

fold every single time if you like money?

[CBass1724 1]

[SGFULTON83 0]

Been said before and I'll just repeat, you should play to win. How you go about getting the victory will depend on how your opponents are playing. If they are all folding to make the money then we need to be a little more aggressive just don't get carried away with it. On the other hand if the opponents are firing at each other and re-raising, then yes we want to sit back and play a little more conservative.

[Poker Addict 0]

6 man sng's = play to cash

Correct

Been said before and I'll just repeat, you should play to win.

WrongSTT or small field SNG's you play to cash looking for opportunities to win. MTT's, you play to win which in many cases can risk your chance to cash.Okay, that covered, now go get SNG Strategy by Colin Moshman. This will answer many more of your questions.

[I_fold08 1]

CorrectWrongSTT or small field SNG's you play to cash looking for opportunities to win. MTT's, you play to win which in many cases can risk your chance to cash.Okay, that covered, now go get SNG Strategy by Colin Moshman. This will answer many more of your questions.

if you dont play to win why play at all

[qyayqi 11]

if you dont play to win why play at all

to be a winner.

[Poker Addict 0]

if you dont play to win why play at all

Poker is not about ego. And STT SNG's have a lot of mathematics involved particularly at the bubble. You even almost touched on some of the items in your first reply. But please study SNG strategy and understand why it is much different than cash or MTT's - although some of the concepts translate well to MTT's.

[flintsword 4]

I know that almost everyone who plays tourney poker for a living will say that they are playing to win and take advantage when the bubble comes up of scared money. I am trying to figure out how to be most profitable playing sng's. I will go into my story:About 2-3 yrs ago, I had my wife put in 50 bones on stars (I had deposited and withdrawn from stars/ppoker before) I played mainly 12 dollar sng's until I had a 1200+ bankroll. I play for fun/competition and it seems that I have to have some kind of money involved to make me take it seriously. I than got bored with sng's and played cash, was playing around even for quite a while until I took a shot at hu nl and plo. I ran horrid, seemed like I lost every coinflip and lowered my br to about 500 and then tried to make it up at turbo sng's and am down to about $300. I know I should have stopped with the cash games, but I figured I could always get back with sng's fairly easily. Now, I have been hovering around the $300 level for a month or so playing the $12 6man sngs and am having trouble trying to decide how to play when it gets down to 3-4 guys and blinds are high. I have been trying not to worry about the bubble and just playing to win, but have been bubbling 3rd and 4th a TON lately, which gets very old. When I was playing the sng's before and doing well, it seemed like I played to make the money, not to win, and occasionally I would get 1st instead of 2nd. As I have done more and more reading it seems like that is not the best approach, the best being to try to win. Now I am at the point where my br is small enough that I need to be careful. I guess, I don't really need the money, but my ultimate goal is to build up again and be able to take shots at satelites for wsop/wcoop and those kinda things. So I guess my ultimate question is, is the best way to do this by not worrying about making the top 2 and playing for the win or do I need to be more concerned with just moneying for the long run?

For players that play 6-player SNG, the long-term enemy is your standards loosen up to the point that initially you cruise with luck and on any kind of bubble when you need to apply some strategy and discipline, there is not enough in your game to take you past 3rd place. I am guessing but your game has become too loose from over-use. Try this: Switch to 9-player SNG, play tight untill you get to 6 players, and then play your regular game. The tight in the beginning discipline will indirectly tighten up your game and your table image will reinforce any fold equity you have when tackling any observant players at the table, which are ususally the dangerous ones. Also, there will be more money in a 12-player SNG than a 6-player. Get Matt Matros' poker book. He is a short game (6-player or less) specialist. He accurately describes the long-term loosening of his game, the effect it had on his results, and what he did to fix it: basically rebuilding his entire game from scratch. It is a good read too.Hope this inderect approach was useful, good skill, and good luck.

[I_fold08 1]

Poker is not about ego. And STT SNG's have a lot of mathematics involved particularly at the bubble. You even almost touched on some of the items in your first reply. But please study SNG strategy and understand why it is much different than cash or MTT's - although some of the concepts translate well to MTT's.

it just seems by playing to only cash you are leaving so much dead money to be put in the other players stacks

[Poker Addict 0]

it just seems by playing to only cash you are leaving so much dead money to be put in the other players stacks

I am not going to go into every different situation of Single Table Tournaments in this thread. But when given the question, do you play to cash or win at the bubble of a STT, you play to cash - over the longterm this is the most profitable way to play SNG's. Of course if you are a bigger stack, you can abuse smaller stacks (or just tighter players in general). And if you are in shove/fold stack levels you need to play accordingly.I was giving an answer to the question asked. But really if people have these questions they should read Sit n Go Strategy by Collin Moshman as well as get a better understanding of ICM calculations. Then post specific hand questions in the tourny strat forum.P.S. After typing the above, I looked at what GWCGWC wrote. And, yes, this:

I'm not sure the other dude understood these are 6 man sng's. What I meant was that cashing is crucial in sng's to maintain a decent roi. Usually just playing to get top two will put you in a position to win. When it's down to three you should have an idea how the other two players are going to react to raises from the bubble and what their gambling threshold is. It's more difficult to figure out in a turbo, which is all I'd play. There are so many situations that dictate a clear call/fold/push when down to 3 players. You base this on position, chip stack, cards and player tendencies. Almost exclusively in that order. That's about as basic as I can put it. With all the resources available about sng's on the interweb, you'd do better to buy a book than to ask such a broad question to gen poker. If you listed a more narrow question in strat, I'm sure you'd get better answers. Something like this:blinds at 100/200 25 anteI'm on the button with 2400 chips and get Qs10ssb has 1200bb has 5400the sb seems to be playing very tight and the bb seems willing to defend his bb with a wide range. Should I be folding or raising in this position?this is a clear fold

[Gallo 1]

it just seems by playing to only cash you are leaving so much dead money to be put in the other players stacks

I haven't read any books on SNG strat or anything, but I think the more you try to play to win the more you will actually find yourself out of the money because you will put yourself into sooooo many more marginal situations than you would if you just play to cash. Just because you're playing to cash doesn't mean that you're NOT trying to win, you're just not taking that many more marginal risks. Once you've made the cash, then you can definitely get more aggro and go for it.Just my 2 centavos