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Discomfort With The Bailout


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I'm not an economist so I'm not going to pretend that I know whats best like everybody else here and everywhere else is doing. We just have to trust that the people in power will make the right decision. Its a very scary thing, I know. But we have to have faith in the system at some point, otherwise whats the point in having one?
Having educated opinions and debates is part of the check and balance on the system. Blind faith in our representatives is not a good idea in my opinion.
Especially since they clearly don't know wtf they're doing either.Unfortunately, it seems that the people smart enough to run the country are also smart enough to not get into politics.
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I'm not an economist so I'm not going to pretend that I know whats best like everybody else here and everywhere else is doing. We just have to trust that the people in power will make the right decision. Its a very scary thing, I know. But we have to have faith in the system at some point, otherwise whats the point in having one?
And sadly that's where my very real fear comes from. I DON'T trust the people in power to make the right decision. I don't even know what the right decision is. But I certainly have a problem with trusting the very people who should have been making some decisions long before now to keep us from getting into this mess. And my trust of the Bush Whitehouse is exactly ZERO. That's where I get extremely nervous about this bailout. We've had so many dumb decisions made by this administration already that I have a really hard time trusting anything that comes out of it.
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I'm not saying they're not making bad choices. But sometimes people make those choices before they think about what they're gonna do about it.I don't like it either, but that's just what happens. Pointing it out doesn't give any solutions though.Sure some people make it pretty well. My dad worked hard labor for his whole life, mostly as an ironworker. He built up a nice pension and supported my bro and I, and lived relatively comfortably, but he was also very good with his money, he never got out of line at all with it. But now he's just turning 65 and he's beat up beyond where I can even explain. He's been in and out of the hospital so many times in the past years I couldn't even tell you how much. He shouldn't be in the shape he is at 65, but he made enough to get by. But I can't say it was worth the price he paid for that. It's clearly not impossible, but it's also not preferable, and also not available to everyone by just asking nicely. Especially when things are in the shitter like they are now. Jobs just aren't easy to come by, shitty or not. But back to the main thing... sometimes you're in a situation before you find a job to support that situation. You can't exactly say fuck those people just because they did it backwards. Our government should be able to figure out a way to fix things from top to bottom, not just top to middle. That's the issue I have.
Not everyone will be succesful, Kurt. Not everyone will even be comfortable. At some point we all live withe choices we make.
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I'm not saying they're not making bad choices. But sometimes people make those choices before they think about what they're gonna do about it.I don't like it either, but that's just what happens. Pointing it out doesn't give any solutions though.Sure some people make it pretty well. My dad worked hard labor for his whole life, mostly as an ironworker. He built up a nice pension and supported my bro and I, and lived relatively comfortably, but he was also very good with his money, he never got out of line at all with it. But now he's just turning 65 and he's beat up beyond where I can even explain. He's been in and out of the hospital so many times in the past years I couldn't even tell you how much. He shouldn't be in the shape he is at 65, but he made enough to get by. But I can't say it was worth the price he paid for that. It's clearly not impossible, but it's also not preferable, and also not available to everyone by just asking nicely. Especially when things are in the shitter like they are now. Jobs just aren't easy to come by, shitty or not. But back to the main thing... sometimes you're in a situation before you find a job to support that situation. You can't exactly say fuck those people just because they did it backwards. Our government should be able to figure out a way to fix things from top to bottom, not just top to middle. That's the issue I have.
Philosophically, yes I can. I did it the right way, made good decisions, continue to work my ass off. I take offense when someone implies I am where I am by some sort of good luck. Things don't "just happen".Actions have consequences.
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Not everyone will be succesful, Kurt. Not everyone will even be comfortable. At some point we all live withe choices we make.
But if we can reduce that number by a lot, then it will be good for everyone. Then the country wouldn't be collapsing.
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Philosophically, yes I can. I did it the right way, made good decisions, continue to work my ass off. I take offense when someone implies I am where I am by some sort of good luck. Things don't "just happen".Actions have consequences.
I'm not saying it's luck. Consequences are fine, but there should at least be a way to work your way out of it.If you look around the world, you see there are some places that are worse than us, and some that while different, have a much higher quality of life from top to bottom. I'm sure they have some people who screwed up and are paying the consequences, but not to the scale that we have in this country.I don't want everyone just given a life for nothing, and you should pay for your choices, but clearly there is something wrong with the system we have right now.
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I'm not saying it's luck. Consequences are fine, but there should at least be a way to work your way out of it.If you look around the world, you see there are some places that are worse than us, and some that while different, have a much higher quality of life from top to bottom. I'm sure they have some people who screwed up and are paying the consequences, but not to the scale that we have in this country.I don't want everyone just given a life for nothing, and you should pay for your choices, but clearly there is something wrong with the system we have right now.
I disagree.
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I'm not saying it's luck. Consequences are fine, but there should at least be a way to work your way out of it.If you look around the world, you see there are some places that are worse than us, and some that while different, have a much higher quality of life from top to bottom. I'm sure they have some people who screwed up and are paying the consequences, but not to the scale that we have in this country.I don't want everyone just given a life for nothing, and you should pay for your choices, but clearly there is something wrong with the system we have right now.
Seems tough for anyone to say that. You can see it failing right in front of you. That's kind of a hint.
We are in the middle of a crisis. We are responding to it. The rest of the World is FOLLOWING the USA, not leading us. It doesn't "hint" that there is something "Clearly Wrong" with the system.OK. You asked for specific responses and I gave some.Time for you to actually pony up and actually support something you have stated as a fact instead of naive opinion.Tell me SPECIFICALLY what is "Clearly Wrong" with our system. You find it so clear, explain your position.While you're at it, name 4 countries that have an overall "much higher quality of life from top to bottom" with references to support the claim.Good luck.
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And sadly that's where my very real fear comes from. I DON'T trust the people in power to make the right decision. I don't even know what the right decision is. But I certainly have a problem with trusting the very people who should have been making some decisions long before now to keep us from getting into this mess. And my trust of the Bush Whitehouse is exactly ZERO. That's where I get extremely nervous about this bailout. We've had so many dumb decisions made by this administration already that I have a really hard time trusting anything that comes out of it.
Where does your hatred for Bush come from? Do you get this from the media? Bush should have done more to try and stop it, but you say nothing about the very people that most directly caused the problems. I am trying to understand why this is? When I hear intelligent people like you actually parroting what they hear in the MSM it worries me. It wouldn't take much research to find out where this whole financial mess got started, yet here you are posting about how dreadful George W. Bush administration has been.
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We are in the middle of a crisis. We are responding to it. The rest of the World is FOLLOWING the USA, not leading us. It doesn't "hint" that there is something "Clearly Wrong" with the system.OK. You asked for specific responses and I gave some.Time for you to actually pony up and actually support something you have stated as a fact instead of naive opinion.Tell me SPECIFICALLY what is "Clearly Wrong" with our system. You find it so clear, explain your position.While you're at it, name 4 countries that have an overall "much higher quality of life from top to bottom" with references to support the claim.Good luck.
LOL @ references.It would be the first one in this thread, so yeah... I'm not in the mood for doing research.If you want to see what's wrong, all you need to do is look around though. I don't need a study to tell me there is a problem. Lots of unemployment, lots of homeless, and lots of people on welfare. On the other end, there are people who are extremely well off, and millions stuck in the middle who seemingly make enough money, unless they actually live somewhere decent, then they can't even afford it. (I know this from experience... that's my reference)But if other countries are following us, I feel bad for them. I don't know world economies, but what countries do things just like us? I'm giving up though. I don't have enough evidence to go beyond my opinions, and I am not going to waste my time for the sake of winning an argument. But if people can't see there is a problem, then I guess I shouldn't expect a solution anytime soon.
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Where does your hatred for Bush come from? Do you get this from the media? Bush should have done more to try and stop it, but you say nothing about the very people that most directly caused the problems. I am trying to understand why this is? When I hear intelligent people like you actually parroting what they hear in the MSM it worries me. It wouldn't take much research to find out where this whole financial mess got started, yet here you are posting about how dreadful George W. Bush administration has been.
Hatred? Hardly. I don't think he qualifies for that much emotion on my part. But basically, the war in Iraq, the Patriot Act and it's children that we don't hear so much about like NAIS, Real ID etc., his extreme lack of leadership in the present economic crisis ( I find it amusing that everyone's on the case of the Presidential CANDIDATES for not doing more but they're giving the present President a pass on his almost total inaction). In fact I've not seen much to admire about Bush's leadership. Certainly it wasn't present during Katrina. And the idea of not even being willing to negotiate with our adversaries doesn't make me think he's a tough guy, what it makes me wonder is what is he afraid of? (I can hardly wait for LMD to pounce on this one,lol)
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LOL @ references.It would be the first one in this thread, so yeah... I'm not in the mood for doing research.If you want to see what's wrong, all you need to do is look around though. I don't need a study to tell me there is a problem. Lots of unemployment, lots of homeless, and lots of people on welfare. On the other end, there are people who are extremely well off, and millions stuck in the middle who seemingly make enough money, unless they actually live somewhere decent, then they can't even afford it. (I know this from experience... that's my reference)But if other countries are following us, I feel bad for them. I don't know world economies, but what countries do things just like us? I'm giving up though. I don't have enough evidence to go beyond my opinions, and I am not going to waste my time for the sake of winning an argument. But if people can't see there is a problem, then I guess I shouldn't expect a solution anytime soon.
OK. This coming from the guy who expressed frustration with people saying he was "wrong" without supporting their positions. Now you refuse to support why you feel you are right. You make generic statements like there are many countries where they have "much higher quality of life from top to bottom". Terms like "Lots of" does not exactly represent a strong base for a point of view. Failure to be able to support you point of view about these "clear" problems make your position VERY weak. This is why I stated earlier that your vague positions are nearly impossible to "attack" because you don't give any substance. Providing a counterpoint to a poorly substantiated point is not worth the effort. I am serious about your need to become more educated on your positions before trying to express them.
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Know what I think might actually help. (Based on my simple ideas)Double the minimum wage. (And obviously balance the middle areas somewhat proportionately) It would have to force companies to funnel some money back to the bottom. That's what we really need, money at the bottom so there's actually something to flow back upwards.Only issue would then be inflation. It's always growing faster than it should be. Inflation seems to be based on the top tier, and it should be based on the bottom.
Double the minimum wage and youll be funneling money to the bottom? Yeah, the bottom that keeps their jobs. Labor supply and wage elasticity FTL.
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The government should just seize Warren Buffet and Bill Gates.
Sounds like the Obama plan, indeed. Of course you'll have to replace the billions theyve given to charity with the super-efficient government charity programs.
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. And the idea of not even being willing to negotiate with our adversaries doesn't make me think he's a tough guy, what it makes me wonder is what is he afraid of? (I can hardly wait for LMD to pounce on this one,lol)
I'll pounce first if LMD hasnt already. You dont know wtf you are talking about if you say he hasnt negoiated with our adversaries.
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I'll pounce first if LMD hasnt already. You dont know wtf you are talking about if you say he hasnt negoiated with our adversaries.
Really? When did he meet with the President of Iran? I must've missed that one.
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LOL @ references.It would be the first one in this thread, so yeah... I'm not in the mood for doing research.If you want to see what's wrong, all you need to do is look around though. I don't need a study to tell me there is a problem. Lots of unemployment, lots of homeless, and lots of people on welfare. On the other end, there are people who are extremely well off, and millions stuck in the middle who seemingly make enough money, unless they actually live somewhere decent, then they can't even afford it. (I know this from experience... that's my reference)But if other countries are following us, I feel bad for them. I don't know world economies, but what countries do things just like us? I'm giving up though. I don't have enough evidence to go beyond my opinions, and I am not going to waste my time for the sake of winning an argument. But if people can't see there is a problem, then I guess I shouldn't expect a solution anytime soon.
For what it is worth, I OFTEN do a quick Google search or even Wikipedia (not that these are definitive sources) review of certain topics and facts in other people's posts as well as my own BEFORE hitting the reply button. As an example, a couple of hours ago, Daniel posted something about Denmark being the "Happiest" country. Before responding, I searched on happy countries and found that there was indeed at least one survey that concluded that Denmark was ranked #1 in happiness. However there are also MANY surveys that reach different conclusions. Many Countries can claim to be at the top of a Happiness Rank. I went on to look at suicide rates and found support for other points of view. I did all this BEFORE trying to finalize my response and express my point of view. I didn't change my Point of View, I just made sure I could defend it. If needed I am often prepared to provide actual reference for the things that I claim or even terms that I use to ensure I am using them correctly.
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Sounds like the Obama plan, indeed. Of course you'll have to replace the billions theyve given to charity with the super-efficient government charity programs.
Well we're gonna have to do the same for all the charity Lehman Brothers gave out. I just figure its easier to take out two guys than a whole bunch of corporations, and we could maybe get rid of Windows Vista at the same time.
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Really? When did he meet with the President of Iran? I must've missed that one.
You think he has to meet with them personally to have negotiations? Do you have any clue about negotiating? If you think you send in your #1 person to talk to someone who repeatedly threatens to blow your #1 ally off the face of the earth and who has sent insurgents into Iraq to kill your soldiers, then you again dont know wtf you are talking about. There have been plenty of negotiations between CR and other staffers at all levels of the Iranian, Pakistani, and Indian governments.Bush has been criticized for negotiating too much with No. Korea, and trying to build too much consensus. The blind hatred for Bush that you have obviously bought into is whats poisoned this government and country for the last 8 years.
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You think he has to meet with them personally to have negotiations? Do you have any clue about negotiating? If you think you send in your #1 person to talk to someone who repeatedly threatens to blow your #1 ally off the face of the earth and who has sent insurgents into Iraq to kill your soldiers, then you again dont know wtf you are talking about. There have been plenty of negotiations between CR and other staffers at all levels of the Iranian, Pakistani, and Indian governments.Bush has been criticized for negotiating too much with No. Korea, and trying to build too much consensus. The blind hatred for Bush that you have obviously bought into is whats poisoned this government and country for the last 8 years.
Again I say really? Where do you get your information from cope? Because it's certainly not been made public that there's been negotiations with Iran like there has with North Korea. And I really don't understand the difference other than the fact that North Korea has China backing their play somewhat. I just wonder what's going to happen when Russia starts backing Iran's more openly. The thing is that there's not a whole lot of evidence of what you say. Anyway, Cope, I've never said I was all wise and all knowing like you seem to think you are. There are things I don't know. So educate me. Point me to some information where Bush has been negotiating with Iran like he's been willing to with North Korea.
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Again I say really? Where do you get your information from cope? Because it's certainly not been made public that there's been negotiations with Iran like there has with North Korea. And I really don't understand the difference other than the fact that North Korea has China backing their play somewhat. I just wonder what's going to happen when Russia starts backing Iran's more openly. The thing is that there's not a whole lot of evidence of what you say. Anyway, Cope, I've never said I was all wise and all knowing like you seem to think you are. There are things I don't know. So educate me. Point me to some information where Bush has been negotiating with Iran like he's been willing to with North Korea.
"She said the meeting that Undersecretary William Burns will join Saturday in Geneva, Switzerland, with European officials and Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, is "in fact a strong signal to the entire world that we have been very serious about this diplomacy and we will remain very serious about this diplomacy." July 2008"The US and its allies are reviewing a proposal that would commit the UN Security Council to hold off on new sanctions on Iran if the country stops further development of its uranium enrichment program, diplomats said," The Associated Press (AP) reported. June 2007"London, May 31 – Britain welcomed on Wednesday the decision by the United States to take part in multilateral negotiations with Iran over its sensitive nuclear activities. “I warmly welcome the United States' proposal to join Britain, France and Germany in any new negotiations”, British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett said in a statement." May 2006"That stance left the Western powers at the Berlin talks unwilling to consider any specific suggestions on a "parallel track" favored by Russia to Security Council action — multilateral negotiations with Iran, including some or all permanent council members and Germany, the official said.But a U.S. official told the AP that if talks with Iran on Iraq were fruitful, they could be expanded to touch on the nuclear issue.The Bush administration and Iran have publicly emphasized those talks would focus on Iraq. But the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said that "if some understanding emerges from those discussions, then the one side or the other might say, 'Let's have some follow-up.'" May 2006
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"She said the meeting that Undersecretary William Burns will join Saturday in Geneva, Switzerland, with European officials and Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, is "in fact a strong signal to the entire world that we have been very serious about this diplomacy and we will remain very serious about this diplomacy." July 2008"The US and its allies are reviewing a proposal that would commit the UN Security Council to hold off on new sanctions on Iran if the country stops further development of its uranium enrichment program, diplomats said," The Associated Press (AP) reported. June 2007"London, May 31 – Britain welcomed on Wednesday the decision by the United States to take part in multilateral negotiations with Iran over its sensitive nuclear activities. “I warmly welcome the United States' proposal to join Britain, France and Germany in any new negotiations”, British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett said in a statement." May 2006"That stance left the Western powers at the Berlin talks unwilling to consider any specific suggestions on a "parallel track" favored by Russia to Security Council action — multilateral negotiations with Iran, including some or all permanent council members and Germany, the official said.But a U.S. official told the AP that if talks with Iran on Iraq were fruitful, they could be expanded to touch on the nuclear issue.The Bush administration and Iran have publicly emphasized those talks would focus on Iraq. But the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media, said that "if some understanding emerges from those discussions, then the one side or the other might say, 'Let's have some follow-up.'" May 2006
Okies you win that one Cope. Oops wait! How do I know those are real stories? :club: jk
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