The Abortion Issue

[Sal Paradise 57]

It may be "dangerous", but bright lines are needed under the law or its impossible to administer. The other choice is to have no law at all, but that clearly will result in violating a living beings rights at some point in time.Letting someone that cant sustain itself despite being provided food, water and air die is not murder imo. Yes, you do get into knotty problems about brain function, but brain function is just a physical process that cant sustain life on its own.

I'm not talking about the law here, I'm just talking about what's "right" or "moral" and I think that killing any human is technically wrong, whether or not he or she can sustain his or herself.

[antistuff 0]

who are you, my mom?

well, i can stick my tongue out at you and say you're stupid you don't think like me. and then you can stick your tongue out at me and say no you're stupid you don't think like me. in reality this would make us both stupid and not because of our opinions. ----------and mercury, you got your answer, although im sure you're not going to like it. it would appear that the correlation which you want to exist between being pro-life and being a christian is not there.

[timwakefield 68]

I will go out on a limb here and say most (not all) of you that are vehimnently for abortion

I don't think anybody would describe themselves as "vehemently for abortion." Abortions for all, no more babies! is not the rallying call of pro-choicers.

[timwakefield 68]

It doesn't hurt, in fact it kind of feels like a big warm ray of sunshine aimed straight at my abdomen.

An abortion is EXTREMELY painful for the mother.

[antistuff 0]

I don't think anybody would describe themselves as "vehemently for abortion." Abortions for all, no more babies! is not the rallying call of pro-choicers.

i am intrigued. this might not be such a bad idea...

[timwakefield 68]

See, this is why abortion needs to remain legal. The last thing we need is more pirates roaming around wreaking havoc on the high seas. The one on the left looks vicious.

:)Seriously cute kids EG.Consider though that you were married, stable (to some extent), etc etc. You weren't a crack-addicted prostitute, for example.A couple years ago a friend of mine got his girlfriend of maybe 4 months pregnant. I dunno if they ever talked about abortion or not, but they went ahead and had a baby and started a family, and the idea of baby Finn being considered for abortion (I'm not saying he ever was) is awful. My point is that I'm pretty strongly pro-choice but I still think an abortion is a terrible tragedy. I just don't see it as murder of any sort.

[El Guapo 8]

:)Seriously cute kids EG.Consider though that you were married, stable (to some extent), etc etc. You weren't a crack-addicted prostitute, for example.A couple years ago a friend of mine got his girlfriend of maybe 4 months pregnant. I dunno if they ever talked about abortion or not, but they went ahead and had a baby and started a family, and the idea of baby Finn being considered for abortion (I'm not saying he ever was) is awful. My point is that I'm pretty strongly pro-choice but I still think an abortion is a terrible tragedy. I just don't see it as murder of any sort.

Gracias.I agree with this 95% except for the fact of being strongly pro choice. I am anti abortion, but I think it needs to be allowed, but I think the guidelines need to be tweaked.

[vbnautilus 48]

Letting someone that cant sustain itself despite being provided food, water and air die is not murder imo. Yes, you do get into knotty problems about brain function, but brain function is just a physical process that cant sustain life on its own.

But again, the question is which aspect of humanity is the relevant aspect for making this decision and why? You talk about "life" being important, but we know that's not the key feature we use to grant rights, since many other life forms don't get the same benefits from us. Yes, it has to be "human" life you've said before, so what quality makes something human is the key, not what quality makes something alive. Let me go nerd here for a moment and use an example from Star Trek to try and make my point about what really affects our judgement on this issue. There was an episode where Commander Data (an android) is on trial to determine whether he gets human rights or if he is just property and can be dissembled. He is not "alive" in the biological sense, but he has self-concept, consciousness, thought, identity, etc.. He doesn't want to be dissassembled, he wants to stay with his friends and colleagues. I have shown this clip in classes before and students almost unanimously agree that Data should be afforded human rights since he has human-like consciousness. What do you think, does Data deserve human rights, or can we do what we want to him since he is not "alive"?

[copernicus 0]

But again, the question is which aspect of humanity is the relevant aspect for making this decision and why? You talk about "life" being important, you never heard me say thatbut we know that's not the key feature we use to grant rights, since many other life forms don't get the same benefits from us. Yes, it has to be "human" life you've said before, so what quality makes something human is the key, not what quality makes something alive. its bothLet me go nerd here for a moment and use an example from Star Trek to try and make my point about what really affects our judgement on this issue. There was an episode where Commander Data (an android) is on trial to determine whether he gets human rights or if he is just property and can be dissembled. He is not "alive" in the biological sense, but he has self-concept, consciousness, thought, identity, etc.. He doesn't want to be dissassembled, he wants to stay with his friends and colleagues. I have shown this clip in classes before and students almost unanimously agree that Data should be afforded human rights since he has human-like consciousness. star trek; drWhat do you think, does Data deserve human rights, or can we do what we want to him since he is not "alive"?

[antistuff 0]

But again, the question is which aspect of humanity is the relevant aspect for making this decision and why? You talk about "life" being important, but we know that's not the key feature we use to grant rights, since many other life forms don't get the same benefits from us. Yes, it has to be "human" life you've said before, so what quality makes something human is the key, not what quality makes something alive. Let me go nerd here for a moment and use an example from Star Trek to try and make my point about what really affects our judgement on this issue. There was an episode where Commander Data (an android) is on trial to determine whether he gets human rights or if he is just property and can be dissembled. He is not "alive" in the biological sense, but he has self-concept, consciousness, thought, identity, etc.. He doesn't want to be dissassembled, he wants to stay with his friends and colleagues. I have shown this clip in classes before and students almost unanimously agree that Data should be afforded human rights since he has human-like consciousness. What do you think, does Data deserve human rights, or can we do what we want to him since he is not "alive"?

you didn't really just get all trecky on us did you?

[vbnautilus 48]

you didn't really just get all trecky on us did you?

I did, I'm sorry, but it's such a good thought experiment.I can rephrase it with out the Trek:What about a conscious robot? It's not alive but should it not have rights if it has human-like consciousness?

[copernicus 0]

I did, I'm sorry, but it's such a good thought experiment.I can rephrase it with out the Trek:What about a conscious robot? It's not alive but should it not have rights if it has human-like consciousness?

no.

[vbnautilus 48]

no.

So it's ok to harm it if it feels pain? Lock it up even though it gets lonely and upset? Let's say it is functionally equivalent to a human except that it is made of silicone instead of carbon. You're just going to enslave it without a second thought?

[copernicus 0]

So it's ok to harm it if it feels pain? Lock it up even though it gets lonely and upset? Let's say it is functionally equivalent to a human except that it is made of silicone instead of carbon. You're just going to enslave it without a second thought?

you defined it as not alive and having "human-like" consciousness. Not even a hint of a second thought.

[vbnautilus 48]

you defined it as not alive and having "human-like" consciousness. Not even a hint of a second thought.

Wow you're mean. Well you are sticking to your guns and are at least consistent. But I have a feeling that making this decision in the abstract is quite a bit easier than facing something which knows who it is and what it is doing, and wants to be free, and telling it it can't because it's not carbon-based "life". It's probably worth giving a second thought. And if you are stuck on the term "human-like" it means there is some aspect of human consciousness which you think is relevant yet not present?

[El Guapo 8]

VB's losing it.Here is a picture of my daughter flipping you off.

[copernicus 0]

And if you are stuck on the term "human-like" it means there is some aspect of human consciousness which you think is relevant yet not present?

I dont know. You made the distinction with the "-like".

[vbnautilus 48]

I dont know. You made the distinction with the "-like".

Yeah but it wasn't important to the thought experiment. Say it is identical mentally to a human, but just made of computer stuff rather than biostuff (it can't reproduce etc., so it's not technically "alive"). It doesn't get human rights?

[vbnautilus 48]

VB's losing it.Here is a picture of my daughter flipping you off.

Wait, you took that picture, isn't she flipping YOU off?

[copernicus 0]

Yeah but it wasn't important to the thought experiment. Say it is identical mentally to a human, but just made of computer stuff rather than biostuff. It doesn't get human rights?

no

[El Guapo 8]

Technically she is flipping my wife off. SEMANTICS!

[SuitedAces21 2,723]

All I have to say is Im glad I wasnt aborted.

[El Guapo 8]

All I have to say is Im glad I wasnt aborted.

This begs the question, can we all say this?

[vbnautilus 48]

no

Let's say I take your body and replace each limb with a bionic replacement. Next I go to your brain, and replace your neurons one by one with silicon replacements - functionally equivalent to the original neurons but they are computer chips. Eventually you are completely mechanical (robo-Cop I might say!), but still feel like yourself, act in the same way, etc...At which point in this process did you lose your rights?

[El Guapo 8]

Let's say I take your body and replace each limb with a bionic replacement. Next I go to your brain, and replace your neurons one by one with silicon replacements - functionally equivalent to the original neurons but they are computer chips. Eventually you are completely mechanical (robo-Cop I might say!), but still feel like yourself, act in the same way, etc...At which point in this process did you lose your rights?

When you started replacing his body parts. FASCIST!