100 Nl.

[Snake Plissken 0]

just sat inPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (BB) ($50)UTG ($49.75)MP ($60.50)CO ($7.05)Button ($83.05)SB ($48.75)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q1 fold, MP raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, Button calls $4.50Flop: ($13.75) 8, 9, Q(2 players)Hero bets $10.50, Button calls $10.50Turn: ($34.75) J(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $15.50, Hero?

[AimHigher 0]

Why did you check the turn? What hands containing a ten are even in his range?

[SGFULTON83 0]

Checking was a mistake, you gave up control of the hand and showed weakness.

[Snake Plissken 0]

Why did you check the turn? What hands containing a ten are even in his range?

get ur point

Checking was a mistake, you gave up control of the hand and showed weakness.

cannot really be a mistake now can it? As stated, he doesn't have a 10, and he's not holding AK. That means I have him drawing to one out or he's bluffing. Letting him bet it can't be a mistake. The pot is larger than my stack so I can push the river if he checks behind. To show weakness with the nuts and these stack sizes must be considered as standard. Am I wrong?

[AimHigher 0]

get ur pointcannot really be a mistake now can it? As stated, he doesn't have a 10, and he's not holding AK. That means I have him drawing to one out or he's bluffing. Letting him bet it can't be a mistake. The pot is larger than my stack so I can push the river if he checks behind. To show weakness with the nuts and these stack sizes must be considered as standard. Am I wrong?

You could have him drawing dead too. I would typically just bet/call the turn but I am open to alternatives. Do you think check/shoving will get him to put the money in with a wider range than bet/calling?

[psujohn 0]

Do you think check/shoving will get him to put the money in with a wider range than bet/calling?

Yeah. If we shove villain has to call 34 to win 68. If we check/shove villain has to call 20 to win 83. I like shoving better than calling because if villain has a hand + draw he's more likely to call it now than on the river if his draw misses. Say something like KJ. And I don't think we can entirely eliminate a T from villains range though that's not going to stop me from shoving.

[Snake Plissken 0]

You could have him drawing dead too. I would typically just bet/call the turn but I am open to alternatives. Do you think check/shoving will get him to put the money in with a wider range than bet/calling?

I don't really know. The only hands he can have imo is 88 or 99 and he can't get away with that no matter what. I don't know what's the best play, but I'm pretty sure it's very marginal. If we were deeper it would be an interesting spot.

[d0c 0]

What hands containing a ten are even in his range?

JT. People way overvalue JT in 3bet pot IP

Hero checks, Button bets $15.50, Hero raises allin

You can mumble how bad you run after he flips over JT, but when you've checked the turn you must shove.

[SGFULTON83 0]

What I meant by checking was a mistake was you gave your control of the betting to him, so when he bets you have to raise all-in. You should have fired again on the turn making him make the tough decision not putting that decision on yourself.

[KingJames 11]

Checking was a mistake, you gave up control of the hand and showed weakness.

Agreed Villain showed interest in this hand twice, preflop and on the flop... no reason not to bet the turn as well... I lean toward shoving

[mtdesmoines 2]

just sat inPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (BB) ($50)UTG ($49.75)MP ($60.50)CO ($7.05)Button ($83.05)SB ($48.75)Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q1 fold, MP raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, Button calls $4.50Flop: ($13.75) 8, 9, Q(2 players)Hero bets $10.50, Button calls $10.50Turn: ($34.75) J(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $15.50, Hero?

I don't think anyone could hold my chips back from this pot.

[NoBBiR 0]

cannot really be a mistake now can it? As stated, he doesn't have a 10, and he's not holding AK. That means I have him drawing to one out or he's bluffing. Letting him bet it can't be a mistake. The pot is larger than my stack so I can push the river if he checks behind. To show weakness with the nuts and these stack sizes must be considered as standard. Am I wrong?

I don't get it. If this is what you think, what is your question in the hand? If you have this bolded read, then either minraise/call or shove. Check/calling the turn makes me puke in my mouth.

[AimHigher 0]

Yeah. If we shove villain has to call 34 to win 68. If we check/shove villain has to call 20 to win 83. I like shoving better than calling because if villain has a hand + draw he's more likely to call it now than on the river if his draw misses. Say something like KJ. And I don't think we can entirely eliminate a T from villains range though that's not going to stop me from shoving.

Yeah, that makes sense. I would think he's betting the turn a high percentage of the time right? If we check it to him and he does check behind though, are we value shoving any river? The only river we really hate is a T, but that would be an uber bad card imo.

I don't really know. The only hands he can have imo is 88 or 99 and he can't get away with that no matter what. I don't know what's the best play, but I'm pretty sure it's very marginal. If we were deeper it would be an interesting spot.

Yeah, that's probably true. We do have two streets to get a stack in that's smaller than the size of the pot. I would say it's still worth trying to get the most we can out of the hand though, even if it is probably marginal.

[Shark527 0]

I don't really know. The only hands he can have imo is 88 or 99 and he can't get away with that no matter what. I don't know what's the best play, but I'm pretty sure it's very marginal. If we were deeper it would be an interesting spot.

If he can have those hands why can he not have TT also?

[krup24 0]

the main reason I don't check this turn is because I don't wantIt to be checked behind like ever. Your missing sick value. Now ifvilians a lag tard we can talk.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Agreed Villain showed interest in this hand twice, preflop and on the flop... no reason not to bet the turn as well... I lean toward shoving

I think open-shoving the turn isn't optimal; unless we know our villain is loose/passive he may be able to get away from AQ, 88/99 here. Why doesn't anyone give credit for a suited 89 or AQ here as possibilities as well?

If he can have those hands why can he not have TT also?

Because villain called the flop bet with a set if he had 88/99, dolt.

[DonkSlayer 1]

the main reason I don't check this turn is because I don't wantIt to be checked behind like ever. Your missing sick value. Now ifvilians a lag tard we can talk.

I think a weak turn lead might be sexy; may convince villain holding 89 or AQ that his hand strength + show of weakness from us makes shoving over top goot.

[psujohn 0]

Are you saying that villain can't have TT? If so you're wrong.Today's games have gotten so aggressive that villain's line w/ TT would be totally standard.He could just as easily have JJ. The point is that he can have us beat but overall against his range we're in good shape. We're (hopefully) not checking the turn because we're afraid of a T. We're checking the turn because:- there's a good chance villain will bet and pot commit himself to call our c/r shove- if he checks behind we can still open shove the river and possibly get called lighter than would a turn shoveHonestly if you check this turn because you're afraid of the T or you're not sure what you're going to do when villain bets then you're better off b/folding though I think that's about the pussiest move in the world.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Are you saying that villain can't have TT? If so you're wrong.

No, but the poster I was responding to was implying that if we're willing to give him 88/99, he can have 1010 just as often as those two hands. Given the flop and turn action, I disagree that villain has 1010 nearly as often as 88/99. I do think 1010 is slightly more likely than 10J.

Today's games have gotten so aggressive that villain's line w/ TT would be totally standard.He could just as easily have JJ.

Are you agreeing that playing 1010 this way is good against aggressive players? Or that aggressive = passive call with 1010 on 89Q board? Either way I think it's bad. If our villain did this and wasn't just bad (because if villain is just bad and we don't have a read that he's bad, this is a purely academic conversation), I think he checks the turn a lot.

The point is that he can have us beat but overall against his range we're in good shape. We're (hopefully) not checking the turn because we're afraid of a T. We're checking the turn because:- there's a good chance villain will bet and pot commit himself to call our c/r shove- if he checks behind we can still open shove the river and possibly get called lighter than would a turn shoveHonestly if you check this turn because you're afraid of the T or you're not sure what you're going to do when villain bets then you're better off b/folding though I think that's about the pussiest move in the world.

Agreed, although with our stack we can never fold the turn like ever.

[psujohn 0]

No, but the poster I was responding to was implying that if we're willing to give him 88/99, he can have 1010 just as often as those two hands. Given the flop and turn action, I disagree that villain has 1010 nearly as often as 88/99. I do think 1010 is slightly more likely than 10J.

Actually given the combinations TT is more likely than 88/99 and TJ more likely than TT and I don't think the flop action necessarily narrows the holdings much. Though raise/calling with JTo pre is pretty loose pre. However villain could be a 55/40 for all we know.

Are you agreeing that playing 1010 this way is good against aggressive players? Or that aggressive = passive call with 1010 on 89Q board? Either way I think it's bad. If our villain did this and wasn't just bad (because if villain is just bad and we don't have a read that he's bad, this is a purely academic conversation), I think he checks the turn a lot.

I'm not sure what that says in English. If villain has TT I think he played it fine. Not necessarily ideally but not bad either. The pre-flop action is fine w/TT and the flop float with a pair+gutshot in position is just fine and the turn bet is fine. If villain has TT it's just a cooler for us. I'm not sure that I'd personally take this line vs an unknown in villain's shoes all the time but I certainly would at least some of the time and especially against a hero that's 3-betting light and generally being aggressive.You're right given stack & pot sizes I'm never ever folding on the turn under any condition other than villain actually turning over a T and then I likely call anyway because I still don't believe him And yes, stack sizes make bet/folding pretty much impossible. My point was just that when we check the turn I has to be with the full intention of crai or shove the river if villain checks back.

[Snake Plissken 0]

If he can have those hands why can he not have TT also?

Are you saying that villain can't have TT? If so you're wrong.Today's games have gotten so aggressive that villain's line w/ TT would be totally standard.He could just as easily have JJ. The point is that he can have us beat but overall against his range we're in good shape. We're (hopefully) not checking the turn because we're afraid of a T. We're checking the turn because:- there's a good chance villain will bet and pot commit himself to call our c/r shove- if he checks behind we can still open shove the river and possibly get called lighter than would a turn shoveHonestly if you check this turn because you're afraid of the T or you're not sure what you're going to do when villain bets then you're better off b/folding though I think that's about the pussiest move in the world.

A flop call with TT is such a bad play. MP1 raises, Button calls, I re-raise. MP1 folds and Button makes another cold call. A bit strange imo but whatever. So what is my range? I never played with the guy before so he knows nothing about me. Let's say my range is 88-AA, AK, AQ. Flop is 8, 9, Q rainbow. I bet 10.50 in a 13.75 pot. A call with TT with that flop is like so bad. The only hand in my range he's beating is AK.

[psujohn 0]

I dunno maybe that's a fairly average range for these stakes but at just 100NL I see squeezes way lighter than that and a lot of villains who will c-bet anything they 3-bet. Yeah this really isn't a great spot to float with TT against an unknown but I'm not sure I'd call it horrible either.

[Snamuh 0]

Are you agreeing that playing 1010 this way is good against aggressive players? Or that aggressive = passive call with 1010 on 89Q board? Either way I think it's bad. If our villain did this and wasn't just bad (because if villain is just bad and we don't have a read that he's bad, this is a purely academic conversation), I think he checks the turn a lot.

FWIW, I'd play TT the same way as the villain, though I'd bet turn slightly larger.

[BaseJester 1]

What I meant by checking was a mistake was you gave your control of the betting to him, so when he bets you have to raise all-in. You should have fired again on the turn making him make the tough decision not putting that decision on yourself.

I don't think we've put ourselves to a difficult decision at all. It's a big pot preflop for the stack sizes: Big enough that I'd happily go to war with what I thought was the best one pair. Since I'm not going to fold top set here, I don't have any issue with him having control of the hand. I'm much more concerned about the villain checking behind, like Krup said.Yeah, he can have JT, but we're still stacking off by the river taking the worst of it. There's no way for us to play pot control now. Just forget about JT and maximize your value against the rest of his range.

[DonkSlayer 1]

FWIW, I'd play TT the same way as the villain, though I'd bet turn slightly larger.

My main issue with the play is the flat-call on the flop. If we think we have the best hand in a 1010, or we that we have FE, we should raise. Flat-calling is terrible unless your read is precise to "he tried to steal PF and would only lead like that with middle pair."I'd like to read your thinking on this because it's definitely not a line I'd expect from a player of your caliber.