How Long Till Biden Is Gone?

[vbnautilus 48]

our understanding of evolution and the nature of things will constantly be changing. so while we understand the theory of evolution and can mentally picture it, what we are picturing is not the entire scope of it. if i understand what you are saying.

What I am saying is that any concept in your mind draws artificial lines in the world. For example, if this thing is the sun, everything outside of it is not the sun. Tree is distinguished from not-tree. Since "god" refers to all of it you can't really use your mind to think of it; there is no not-god. like the Tao Te Ching says:The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

So are the religious convictions of a VP candidate REALLY a major issue in this election cycle?

[navybuttons 15]

What I am saying is that any concept in your mind draws artificial lines in the world. For example, if this thing is the sun, everything outside of it is not the sun. Tree is distinguished from not-tree. Since "god" refers to all of it you can't really use your mind to think of it; there is no not-god. like the Tao Te Ching says:The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. The unnamable is the eternally real. Naming is the origin of all particular things.

i will have to give this more thought. btw, i fucking hate when people tell me my religion i wrong when i think about it the same way my ancestors did 2000 years ago considering my ancestors had the same understanding that i have now.

[Loismustdie 0]

The thing is that the exact same thing can be said about the republican side of things. Running on a platform of change was ridiculous until it made big waves, now it's the platform for both campaigns. Some things that Michelle Obama said (the soundbytes anyways) caused her to be labed a radical and anti Americanl, so much so that she was literally pictured as such on magazine covers and was a practioner of the "terrorist fist bump" yet now according to conservatives Todd Palin's past politcal associations have no need to be mentioned. Obama's church etc were deemed predjudiced and anti-american and soundbytes were run on constant loop and yes even in the msm but now Palin's church and her beliefs and those of her husband shoud be off the table. Obama's level of experience was the biggest point of contention for the republican party when the race started but then Palin was picked as VP so now it isn't mentioned . The way you feel about the democrats and there media is very much inline with how I feel about many conservatives at this point. I feel bad that you will let your polical views stop you from enjoying great entertainers but at least you'll still have Chuck Norris and Ben Stein.

Rapid fire style:#1 I have no problem with change. #2 Michelle Obama has said some dumb things about America and Americans that were just to easy. As far as the fist bump thing, I give it no thought except for this: Kind of unproffesional. I can't remember a time when Chuck Schwab gave me a fist bump, but, whatever. I think it's unfortunate that she is even involved at the level she has been, and if you noticed, she no longer is, which was a good move by Obama.#3 Todd Palin. Interestingly enough Obama was once for the seccesion of Hawaii. That being said, as Obamas political associations are completely out of bounds and downplayed there is no reason to go here about someone who isn't even on the ticket.#4 It's not off the table, let's talk about. Hell, do it. The point is Pentecostals believe the same thing Obama claims to believe except they also believe tongues, or the works of the Holy Spirit still exist. This isn't even really the issue- the Bible is, and Obama would be just as guilty and marginalized, so let's really go there. Now, that being said, the things that were "in a loop" had zero to do with religion and everything to do with anti-americansim.#5 Incorrect. Within seconds of Palins pick I turned to CNN and this is what the heads were saying "I guess experience is off the table." Within 24 hours the McCain campaign came back and said "Why? She isn't even the number one and she is as experienced as your guy." Experience has never been taken off the table, and what you have seen the more it stays on the better it is for McCains campaign because Obama has none.

[Loismustdie 0]

And I could give a **** about your short-sightedness, too, but I never attacked you.Very Christian of youBtw, gg on completely ignoring every point I made

You made no points worth addressing, which is weird because you usually do. I said we didn't care that you were embarrased. Relax, Nancy boy.

[Balloon guy 158]

I agree with a lot of your gist, but one clarification for me is that I think the original meaning of "god" is not an idea, it's to refer to that which you cannot mentally represent -- the anti-idea. All mental representations are inherently categorical (boundaried); god is not, which is why even putting a linguistic label on it is discouraged in some religions, and making a physical representation of it (an idol!) is a real big no-no.

You mean like the concept of infinity?

[vbnautilus 48]

You mean like the concept of infinity?

Well, infinity is a different kind of concept since there are things that qualify as not-infinity, like finite quantities.edit: but yes, I see the similarity since infinity involves something we can't quite wrap our mind around

[Balloon guy 158]

Well, infinity is a different kind of concept since there are things that qualify as not-infinity, like finite quantities.edit: but yes, I see the similarity since infinity involves something we can't quite wrap our mind around

I got this question wrong once:What does Infinity - (Infinity-1) = ?Ever since then I have hated infinity, although Douglas Adams almost got me to forgive infinity in Hitchhikers Guide.And I notice that your signature again, when Obama is leading, suddenly has no states tieing...

[jmkiser 0]

You made no points worth addressing, which is weird because you usually do. I said we didn't care that you were embarrased. Relax, Nancy boy.

I'm so glad that you made the decision that my points aren't worth while. And then it's even more funny when you tell me to relax when you swore at me first.Sure, I'll play, let's rephrase.There are tons of more qualified conservative governors. It's a shame that Republicans are so happy for someone with few reasons to be excited about.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm so glad that you made the decision that my points aren't worth while. And then it's even more funny when you tell me to relax when you swore at me first.Sure, I'll play, let's rephrase.There are tons of more qualified conservative governors. It's a shame that Republicans are so happy for someone with few reasons to be excited about.

Again, not worthwhile. Isn't a job in the world that the most qualified person holds. We haven't had a candidate in forever that was the best possible, on either side. That being said, grousing about it is a waste of time. You're smart- how do you not see that consistently focusing on the negative gets you, well, where you are? It's one of the main reasons why time and again I win and you lose. All of the sudden I can't say something as simple as "I could give a **** that you are ashamed of Republicans support of Palin?" You are not that thin skinned. Focus on the issues and lets not get side tracked with the pretend shock at one F word. It makes you look weak, and frankly I never have seen you as that.

[irishguy 14]

Rapid fire style:

My point wasn't to argue these issues with you rather that all the "crap" comes from each side and many of the non-issue issues are giant games of he said/she said.

[copernicus 0]

It's not a predictive statistic, its a descriptive statistic. That is the number of presidents who have died in office.

stop it. you said:She needs to be prepared to be president. Look, it's really not that unusual for a president to die in office. Eight of our 43 have actually kicked off in office, thats almost 20%. That clearly implies that because 20% of Presidents died she needs to be prepared to be President. Thats predictive as hell.

[copernicus 0]

He said he didn't agree with the remarks his pastor was criticized for making:"I profoundly disagree with some of these statements." And then he left the church when that guy started saying negative things about Clinton. I'm not saying she needs to completely renounce everything ever taught in her church. If they taught her to be nice to people, that's cool with me. But does she really believe in creationism as it appears? (we know that Obama doesn't). Does she think people speaking in tongues are possessed by the Holy Spirit? Does she think the End is near? The fact is that if anything she has been letting us know that she does stick to a rather strict interpretation of her religion.

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community," Obama said of Wright. "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother…These people are a part of me." He left the church when the political heat got too hot, and if you believe he never heard the racial hatred Wright spews Ive got a investment bank you ma want to buy.You have shifted distinctly to the left in your rhetoric in the last few days.

[vbnautilus 48]

stop it. you said:She needs to be prepared to be president. Look, it's really not that unusual for a president to die in office. Eight of our 43 have actually kicked off in office, thats almost 20%. That clearly implies that because 20% of Presidents died she needs to be prepared to be President. Thats predictive as hell.

She does need to be prepared to be president, and that is what I was saying. But I didn't say there's a 20% chance that the president will die.

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community," Obama said of Wright. "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother…These people are a part of me." He left the church when the political heat got too hot, and if you believe he never heard the racial hatred Wright spews Ive got a investment bank you ma want to buy.You have shifted distinctly to the left in your rhetoric in the last few days.

Yes, you're right, one could say that even though Obama denies he shares that belief with his Pastor, he really does harbor the same feelings covertly. I think that's wrong, but its a reasonable position to hold. But Palin has not denied sharing the extreme beliefs of her church.

[El Guapo 8]

Vb - my mother in law is pretty religious and she was explaining to me this morning that there is a misconception of pentecostal churches, that most are not the snake charming voo doo tongues. A lot of them are more comparable to no-denomination christian and/or Quakers. Where they take a very basic approach to studying the bible and following its teachings.If that is the case with her church (which I do not know) does that change anything for you? Since at the surface level (take out the racist diatribes) it is presented that Obama's church was about the same.

[vbnautilus 48]

Vb - my mother in law is pretty religious and she was explaining to me this morning that there is a misconception of pentecostal churches, that most are not the snake charming voo doo tongues. A lot of them are more comparable to no-denomination christian and/or Quakers. Where they take a very basic approach to studying the bible and following its teachings.If that is the case with her church (which I do not know) does that change anything for you? Since at the surface level (take out the racist diatribes) it is presented that Obama's church was about the same.

That would be a little better, yes, but her church does indeed support speaking in tongues and faith healing. As I understand it the Assemblies of God faction is on the conservative side of pentecostalism. Her pastor said:Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. Church member Caroline Spangler told CNN, "When the spirit comes on you, you utter things that nobody else can understand ... only God can understand what is coming out of our mouths."Some Pentecostals from Assembly of God also believe in "faith healing" and the "end times" -- a violent upheaval that they believe will deliver Jesus Christ's second coming."Our basic belief is that God is God and he knows where history is going and he has a purposeful plan and within the middle of that plan we live in an environment in our world where certain events would take place," says McGraw. "Sarah wasn't taught to look for one particular sign -- a cataclysmic sign. She knew as every Christian does ... that God is sovereign and he is in control."http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/08/palin.pastor/

[jmkiser 0]

Again, not worthwhile. Isn't a job in the world that the most qualified person holds. We haven't had a candidate in forever that was the best possible, on either side. That being said, grousing about it is a waste of time. You're smart- how do you not see that consistently focusing on the negative gets you, well, where you are? It's one of the main reasons why time and again I win and you lose. All of the sudden I can't say something as simple as "I could give a **** that you are ashamed of Republicans support of Palin?" You are not that thin skinned. Focus on the issues and lets not get side tracked with the pretend shock at one F word. It makes you look weak, and frankly I never have seen you as that.

Gets me where I am? I'm not anywhere. It's as if you think I'm on some "side" of a "battle" and I'm losing something. I don't think anyone knows what you're talking about.You win and I lose? You win what and lose what? You've done nothing to win anything.I'm not thin skinned, you're the one who decided to ignore my points and take it beyond decent discussion.Let's get a quick reality check here: I was talking issues. You decided to take the step outside the realm of decent discussion. Talking about "weakness" is retarded. This little game you have of ignoring what's actually going on, then making up this whole new universe where you're the king... is completely absurd. No one is buying it and the people who are "on your side" just ignore you. Trust me, LMD, stick to the religion forums. That's your forte

[20TN40 0]

Enjoy your future Palin-led Senate:

She has attended a Pentacostal church and many other churches and considers herself a Non-Denominational Christian. Do you want to discuss how Obama could possibly have attended (and been married by) Rev. Wright and not immediately assume that Obama has the same beliefs? I think there are about a brazillion videos on youtube of Rev. Wright and sermons which Obama surely heard and most likely participated in. Could you supply some of the videos from the churches Palin attended?

[vbnautilus 48]

She has attended a Pentacostal church and many other churches and considers herself a Non-Denominational Christian. Do you want to discuss how Obama could possibly have attended (and been married by) Rev. Wright and not immediately assume that Obama has the same beliefs? I think there are about a brazillion videos on youtube of Rev. Wright and sermons which Obama surely heard and most likely participated in. Could you supply some of the videos from the churches Palin attended?

We kind of dealt with this already in the thread, but if Palin wants to disavow speaking in tongues as nonsense I will listen to her. Obama said he doesn't agree with the preacher; maybe you think he does anyway -- thats fine -- doesn't seem to me that he does. But it does seem that Palin still embraces the practices of her church, and she hasn't said anywhere that she doesn't.

[20TN40 0]

Because she seems to be much more deeply influenced by the silliest parts of it. Obama has made his position more acceptable to me with statements like this:"I'm a Christian, and I believe in parents being able to provide children with religious instruction without interference from the state. But I also believe our schools are there to teach worldly knowledge and science. I believe in evolution, and I believe there's a difference between science and faith. That doesn't make faith any less important than science. It just means they're two different things. And I think it's a mistake to try to cloud the teaching of science with theories that frankly don't hold up to scientific inquiry."Whereas Palin apparently believes in creationism, and think it's ok for that to be taught in schools. Also, spending her life in a Pentecostal church means she absorbed some of the more radical and absurd religious practices associated with Christianity.

VB, if there is one thing that I think you should gather from all this it is that Obama is a liar. Either he is a Christian OR he believes in evolution. Christians believe that God created the earth, not that we come from apes.That's just one thing. And there is absolutely no way that Obama sat through 20+ years of Rev. Wright's "sermons" and disagreed with his teachings. No way. The only reason he left that church, and it has been mentioned by Obama and Wright, is to distance himself from them for his presidential bid. He didn't leave because he disagreed and he has said as much himself.

[vbnautilus 48]

Either he is a Christian OR he believes in evolution.

Nonsense. There are plenty of people who consider themselves Christians and believe in evolution.

That's just one thing. And there is absolutely no way that Obama sat through 20+ years of Rev. Wright's "sermons" and disagreed with his teachings. No way. The only reason he left that church, and it has been mentioned by Obama and Wright, is to distance himself from them for his presidential bid. He didn't leave because he disagreed and he has said as much himself.

I'm sure they share perspective to some degree. But regarding the things Wright said that people found most offensive Obama has been quite articulate in detailing his position on those things, and it really doesn't make sense that he just made all that up to hide his latent racism.

[20TN40 0]

We kind of dealt with this already in the thread, but if Palin wants to disavow speaking in tongues as nonsense I will listen to her. Obama said he doesn't agree with the preacher; maybe you think he does anyway -- thats fine -- doesn't seem to me that he does. But it does seem that Palin still embraces the practices of her church, and she hasn't said anywhere that she doesn't.

Why should she disavow any religious belief that she may hold? How does whether or not people at her church speak in tongues effect you or this country? BTW, they also speak in tongues at Obama's church but I guess that's okay? Obama said he didn't agree with some of the sermons AFTER he was blasted about it. Up to that point, he'd happily been listening and following along for 20 YEARS. He only "left" when the fire got hot.FYI, I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Palin is a hardcore Pentecostal, but not all Pentecostal churches have the same practices. Some of them handle snakes, some don't. Some Baptists handle snakes, some don't. Some Pentecostals speak in tongues, some don't. Some Baptists speak in tongues, some don't. And I'm equally dismayed that you are using Youtube as your introduction to the Pentecostal faith.

[20TN40 0]

Nonsense. There are plenty of people who consider themselves Christians and believe in evolution. You wish, but it's not possible. Christians believe that God created the universe. Period. I'm sure they share perspective to some degree. But regarding the things Wright said that people found most offensive Obama has been quite articulate in detailing his position on those things, and it really doesn't make sense that he just made all that up to hide his latent racism. Then why did he join the church to start with and why didn't he leave it many years ago? He stayed because he believed in Wright's teachings. Otherwise, he would have left long before it became uncomfortable for him to have Wright around. The preface of Obama's book coo's and coddles Wright, saying he has had a PROFOUND impact on Obama's life and decisions. Do you want someone like that (who has been brainwashed by Wright to hate whites and Americans) to be one of the people with their finger on the Big Red Button?

[vbnautilus 48]

Why should she disavow any religious belief that she may hold?

She shouldn't! I only brought that up because you said if I hold her responsible for what her church does I have to hold Obama responsible for his church's beliefs. I pointed out that he disavowed the offending beliefs -- he doesn't believe them. She didn't; probably because, as you say, she DOES believe them! Exactly my point.

How does whether or not people at her church speak in tongues effect you or this country?

Well I don't think I'm going to make any progress on that one with you, since you are a believer. But in short I think believing that the people speaking in tongues are possessed by some holy spirit is quite an extraordinary breakdown of grasp on reality.

BTW, they also speak in tongues at Obama's church but I guess that's okay?

Well first, I've never heard of that being part of Church of Christ theology. Can you provide evidence of that? Second, as we've been discussing, Obama has discussed his personal views about his religion and from what I've heard his views are comparatively reasonable.

FYI, I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Palin is a hardcore Pentecostal, but not all Pentecostal churches have the same practices. Some of them handle snakes, some don't. Some Baptists handle snakes, some don't. Some Pentecostals speak in tongues, some don't. Some Baptists speak in tongues, some don't. And I'm equally dismayed that you are using Youtube as your introduction to the Pentecostal faith.

Her church does speak in tongues and perform faith healings, they are part of the Assemblies of God faction which is pretty hard core. Here's a quote from her Pastor:Palin's former pastor, Tim McGraw, says that like many Pentecostal churches, some members speak in tongues, although he says he's never seen Palin do so. Church member Caroline Spangler told CNN, "When the spirit comes on you, you utter things that nobody else can understand ... only God can understand what is coming out of our mouths."Some Pentecostals from Assembly of God also believe in "faith healing" and the "end times" -- a violent upheaval that they believe will deliver Jesus Christ's second coming."Our basic belief is that God is God and he knows where history is going and he has a purposeful plan and within the middle of that plan we live in an environment in our world where certain events would take place," says McGraw. "Sarah wasn't taught to look for one particular sign -- a cataclysmic sign. She knew as every Christian does ... that God is sovereign and he is in control."http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/08/palin.pastor/And the youtube clip is by no means my introduction to pentecostalism. I know quite a bit about them due to having a friend who grew up in a pentecostal church. He actually has a difficult time talking about since he feels kind of ashamed of the stuff he did while in there. I also recently watched this movie which was very informative and I recommend it:http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

[vbnautilus 48]

You wish, but it's not possible. Christians believe that God created the universe. Period.

Come on. There are as many interpretations of what that means as there are pages in the bible. Who are you to tell him he doesn't qualify as a Christian? I guarantee you there are Christians on this forum that believe in evolution.

Then why did he join the church to start with and why didn't he leave it many years ago? He stayed because he believed in Wright's teachings. Otherwise, he would have left long before it became uncomfortable for him to have Wright around. The preface of Obama's book coo's and coddles Wright, saying he has had a PROFOUND impact on Obama's life and decisions. Do you want someone like that (who has been brainwashed by Wright to hate whites and Americans) to be one of the people with their finger on the Big Red Button?

Well I'm not sure why you are putting me in the position of defending Obama's stay in his church. I'd prefer if he never went to church at all, and I am not campaigning for him. But really you think Obama hates whites and Americans?