Why With Low Pocket Pairs?

[TheRegime 0]

I was just watching the final table of the Wed quarter mil as many of us were.Anyways Ive seen about 5 times now that a big stack will cal a low stacks huge overbet all in with any low PP and have lost tons of chips on these calls.The only low PP Ive seen win was 88 vs As7s when it got lucky and rivered a full house over a turned flush.Other than that 22 lost to 34 when 34 hit a flush, 77 lost to 10 10 and 55 lost to A6 etc.Why would you risk so many chips when you arent committed at all with low PPs?Especially when the difference between 3rd to 2nd is like $10k.Can anyone explain to me how anyone calls preflop with low PP for like a quarter of their stack especially with low blinds.Just seems stupid to me.Edit: OMFG two stacks at like 700k 66 raised, JJ reraised, 66 shoved and JJ hit quads to bust him out. Why commit so much with 66? Why not raise to steal then fold to a big reraise?

[Veener Schnitz 0]

I was just watching the final table of the Wed quarter mil as many of us were.Anyways Ive seen about 5 times now that a big stack will cal a low stacks huge overbet all in with any low PP and have lost tons of chips on these calls.The only low PP Ive seen win was 88 vs As7s when it got lucky and rivered a full house over a turned flush.Other than that 22 lost to 34 when 34 hit a flush, 77 lost to 10 10 and 55 lost to A6 etc.Why would you risk so many chips when you arent committed at all with low PPs?Especially when the difference between 3rd to 2nd is like $10k.Can anyone explain to me how anyone calls preflop with low PP for like a quarter of their stack especially with low blinds.Just seems stupid to me.Edit: OMFG to stacks at like 700k 66 raised, JJ reraised 66 shoved and Jj hit quads to bust him out. Why commit so much with 66 why not raise to steal then fold to a big reraise?

LoLuRaGeD?!

[Mercury69 3]

Because some people just play like fckn retards regardless of the stakes or level? And somewhow they justify their play because they still have $$$ in their account...Play long enough and you'll see that a lot of completely idiotic plays get rewarded.

[Biff Goods 0]

because they are racing......coin flip......don't they always have two overs when you are dealt fives?it's that way on tv

[TheRegime 0]

Thnx for the replies. Even though some were sarcastic they still had a general concensus. That there are dumb people at every level that overplay low PP and make dumb decisions.Also to Mercury I have seen a lot of dumb plays get rewarded at lower stakes. I just thought people would stop making those dumb plays at highers stakes especially at a final table. Apparently not.

[A_Bullets_A 0]

You didn't explain the other examples, but the action on the 66 vs JJ hand sounds like it might not be so bad. If the guy with 66 was opening a lot, stealing a lot of blinds, then the guy with JJ could have been three betting a lot of hands because of that. If he was, then his range is still pretty wide and the shove with 66 will win the pot a lot of the time. There's a lot of hands he'll have to fold, but not too many he can call with for all his chips. The guy just wants to win the pot right there, it's not like he wants to get called when he pushes with 66. All the times when it works, you don't see though. You only see the times it doesn't, when the cards get turned up. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's always so terrible depending on the players and the action. I dunno.

[TheRegime 0]

Ok maybe the 66 hand he thought the other guy would fold. But every other time there were big all ins or multiple reraises the low PP was always the caller. The guy with 66 called a huge all in preflop with 22 like wtf 22 is pure garbage. It lost to 34 of spades AIPF when 34 hit a flush.

[AmScray 355]

First off, organizationally speaking, your OP is a fucking catastrophe. Worry less about poker and concern yourself a bit more with obtaining an 8th grade mastery of the punctuation that goes hand in hand with writing (what is presumably) your own native language. Secondly, you have to understand that pocket deuces are almost dead even against A/K, about 52%/47% favorite against A/Q and on down the line. There are players against whom I would fold 8's in the BB against a SB open shove with a 25X bb stack, there are players I could strongly consider calling in that exact same spot holding A/10 with 30X. As far as generally overplaying pocket pairs, yes, retards do it, but that's the beauty of the game. When I raise 4X from the gun with KK, get a reraiser on the button, the BB calls, I put in for 3, and both the button and BB call, when the BB flops his set of 3's (that he called three bets with accounting for 1/4 of his stack in order to do), it doesn't matter. I made the right decision there and he was an idiot for overplaying them. That retards can play poker and obtain a modicum of short term success is the beauty of the game. Don't rue against it. Don't lament. Smile, the next time you see some retard overplaying a small pocket pair and know that because of people just like him, poker will always remain profitable.Brady Bunch is on TV land, it's the episode where Jan Brady is running for most popular girl, I gotta go.

[TheRegime 0]

Well good job on being the grammar police. I actually have taken 2 years of University Engineering and taken the english courses along with it. I just dont see why people want perfect and proper when on an internet forum. Some people are bad enough that it is worth complaining and telling them. Mine on the other hand was just broken up to show seperate hands and was also a rant.Anyways, I guess retards will always overplay low PP's and I guess I have to exploit that. Anyways have fun correcting peoples punctuation and spelling. I bet it is the best part of your day.

[AmScray 355]

Well good job on being the grammar police. I actually have taken 2 years of University Engineering and taken the english courses along with it. I just dont see why people want perfect and proper when on an internet forum. Some people are bad enough that it is worth complaining and telling them. Mine on the other hand was just broken up to show seperate hands and was also a rant.Anyways, I guess retards will always overplay low PP's and I guess I have to exploit that. Anyways have fun correcting peoples punctuation and spelling. I bet it is the best part of your day.

No, this post was the best part of my day.Thank you. Sincerely.(anyway, lets not hijack this post. More discussion about people overplaying small pocket pairs)

[TheRegime 0]

Ok we wont hijack this. Anyways I apologize for my comments it just pisses me off when people correct grammar in a rude way. Like telling me I am at an 8th grade level, etc. Yes my first post was all over the place but I was just stunned at how bad the play was at that final table. It is in the past I hope we can just be friendly from now on.Anyways back on topic. Personally I dont even raise PP's 99 and lower unless it is like 3 handed and Im on the button. I will limp/call for set value but that is about it. I find you commit too much trying to buy your way out of missed flops or scary boards with lower PP. Even mid PP like 99-JJ can cost you a lot if the board is low or has 1 over card and you run into a big hand and are forced to fold after commiting a lot or call and lose.Anyone else have thoughts on low PP and how they should or shouldnt be played?PS This almost is leaning towards the strategy forums. If it goes that way can a mod please move it. Thnx.

[NoxKo 0]

Ok we wont hijack this. Anyways I apologize for my comments it just pisses me off when people correct grammar in a rude way. Like telling me I am at an 8th grade level, etc. Yes my first post was all over the place but I was just stunned at how bad the play was at that final table. It is in the past I hope we can just be friendly from now on.

Never apologize to a douche. Your first post was fine.

[simo_8ball 0]

Personally I dont even raise PP's 99 and lower unless it is like 3 handed and Im on the button. I will limp/call for set value but that is about it.

Sorry, but that's horrible.Set mining is nowhere near as profitable as you think, and you should raise or fold small pairs when first into the pot. Limp/calling sucks.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

Ok we wont hijack this. Anyways I apologize for my comments it just pisses me off when people correct grammar in a rude way. Like telling me I am at an 8th grade level, etc. Yes my first post was all over the place but I was just stunned at how bad the play was at that final table. It is in the past I hope we can just be friendly from now on.Anyways back on topic. Personally I dont even raise PP's 99 and lower unless it is like 3 handed and Im on the button. I will limp/call for set value but that is about it. I find you commit too much trying to buy your way out of missed flops or scary boards with lower PP. Even mid PP like 99-JJ can cost you a lot if the board is low or has 1 over card and you run into a big hand and are forced to fold after commiting a lot or call and lose.Anyone else have thoughts on low PP and how they should or shouldnt be played?PS This almost is leaning towards the strategy forums. If it goes that way can a mod please move it. Thnx.

most people would say you just suck at poker... but imo, you're just way ahead of everyone else and need to move up where they respect your raises more.

[TheRegime 0]

To Simo I do that because the limits I play people will call every raise and chase anything and everything. Call me down with any weak top pair. So I rather not have to buy my way out of a pot. Also limping with them to these sort of people can pay off huge if I do hit a set or have an over pair to a low board and they go crazy with top pair.To Vt it is true that no one respects raises at the limits or the home games I play. I dont have the money to move up limits at the moment.I guess I will keep using this strategy and see if it works. Anyone else think it is bad or good? Also how do you play your low PP?

[wavelengthsf 0]

To Simo I do that because the limits I play people will call every raise and chase anything and everything. Call me down with any weak top pair. So I rather not have to buy my way out of a pot. Also limping with them to these sort of people can pay off huge if I do hit a set or have an over pair to a low board and they go crazy with top pair.To Vt it is true that no one respects raises at the limits or the home games I play. I dont have the money to move up limits at the moment.I guess I will keep using this strategy and see if it works. Anyone else think it is bad or good? Also how do you play your low PP?

I play a lot of low limit MTTs. For 55 - 99, I tend to min raise or call smallish (no more than 2x) raises preflop. 44 or below i'm going to limp or fold. Its seemed to work ok so far - but I'm usually throwing away my pair on the next round of betting, unless I hit a set.

[AmScray 355]

To Simo I do that because the limits I play people will call every raise and chase anything and everything. Call me down with any weak top pair. So I rather not have to buy my way out of a pot. Also limping with them to these sort of people can pay off huge if I do hit a set or have an over pair to a low board and they go crazy with top pair.To Vt it is true that no one respects raises at the limits or the home games I play. I dont have the money to move up limits at the moment.I guess I will keep using this strategy and see if it works. Anyone else think it is bad or good? Also how do you play your low PP?

Simo is 100% correct. It's pretty bad and your entire mindset about the game seems to revolve around short term results rather and 'fear of them sucking out' as opposed to optimal decision making, which unquestionably has a massive impact on your subsequent play.I'm not a patient enough person to explain this notion in detail (I'll leave that to others), so I'll make a basic gambling theory lesson. Lets say that you and I decided to engage in a lifelong wager on the basis of flipping a coin.Every day, we would flip this coin 1000 times- when I won, you would pay me $1.00. When you won, I would pay you $1.10. On day one, I go on an absolute tear and wind up winning 620 of the 1000 flips, for a profit of $82. Day two, much the same... Day three, you win a bit, day 4, against the odds, I come out ahead again... "Geeze", you say... "This guy is just too damn lucky, maybe I should quit this bet! I can't afford this stuff! He just keeps getting "lucky" on me!"The fact is, if we were to keep up this bet, you would eventually take every dime I had with 100% certainty. In the short term, while I may get "lucky", the correct decision is to exercise your 10% advantage as regularly and often as possible. In poker, things are different in that the 'results' don't conclude themselves in a purely equitable fashion. The flop doesn't come and the winner summarily determined based on it's results, like flipping a coin. Sometimes, your opponents will get lucky. Sometimes, they will lie. You have to make decisions based on probability and other, far more intangible factors and modify your play accordingly. This isn't to say that limping with medium pairs is *always* a bad decision, but it usually is and over time, it is far from the optimal decision. I think the reason you're doing this is because your post flop play probably sucks and you don't know how to effectively leverage your preflop advantages or comprehend the post flop game play behaviors of your opponents.

[TheRegime 0]

Amscray I think you are 100% wrong about playing low PP as a slight advantage coinflip. For the reason is what about overpairs that takes your slight advantage away right there. Also I rather not flip a coin for my tournament life Id rather use skill and maximize value on big hands to earn my chips. Also you are not factoring in bluffing potential for your opponents. If you raise with 55 and get 2 callers. What do you do on a AK2 flop? What if someone bets into you? Do they have a hand? Even if they dont you will probably fold. Low PP are so hard to play post flop unless you hit a set that you will most likely fold them instead of trying to make the hero calls. And since I dont want to risk my tourny on coin flips at best if Im not dominated by an overpair and I dont want to raise preflop then fold to any resistance on a missed flop, I think limp/calling with low PP for set value is a much safer way of doing things and will be much more profitable in the long run.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

I think limp/calling with low PP for set value is a much safer way of doing things and will be much more profitable in the long run.

I think you need to realize you are wrong. So very, very wrong.In some situations it is alright to limp along when others limp. In most situations, especially once the average stack becomes 100 bb's and less, it is just Unprofitable to limp lower PP's. You invite others to come along by limping. And PLEASE PLEAAASE do not bore me with the "people don't respect my raises" bullshit. The raise is to weed out more people that would normally call (and YES many more people fold to a raise than call the raise). Then proceed accordingly...

[Tehtoe 3]

Ok we wont hijack this. Anyways I apologize for my comments it just pisses me off when people correct grammar in a rude way. Like telling me I am at an 8th grade level, etc. Yes my first post was all over the place but I was just stunned at how bad the play was at that final table. It is in the past I hope we can just be friendly from now on.Anyways back on topic. Personally I dont even raise PP's 99 and lower unless it is like 3 handed and Im on the button. I will limp/call for set value but that is about it. I find you commit too much trying to buy your way out of missed flops or scary boards with lower PP. Even mid PP like 99-JJ can cost you a lot if the board is low or has 1 over card and you run into a big hand and are forced to fold after commiting a lot or call and lose.Anyone else have thoughts on low PP and how they should or shouldnt be played?PS This almost is leaning towards the strategy forums. If it goes that way can a mod please move it. Thnx.

I haven't read past this, but may I ask what your tournament results look like?

[AmScray 355]

Amscray I think you are 100% wrong about playing low PP as a slight advantage coinflip. For the reason is what about overpairs that takes your slight advantage away right there. Also I rather not flip a coin for my tournament life Id rather use skill and maximize value on big hands to earn my chips. Also you are not factoring in bluffing potential for your opponents. If you raise with 55 and get 2 callers. What do you do on a AK2 flop? What if someone bets into you? Do they have a hand? Even if they dont you will probably fold. Low PP are so hard to play post flop unless you hit a set that you will most likely fold them instead of trying to make the hero calls. And since I dont want to risk my tourny on coin flips at best if Im not dominated by an overpair and I dont want to raise preflop then fold to any resistance on a missed flop, I think limp/calling with low PP for set value is a much safer way of doing things and will be much more profitable in the long run.

ok.You a) clearly understood the point I was getting at in my post and b) obviously know more about poker than I do, so I'll just STFUGL at the tables! I'm sure you'll have a long and prosperous poker career.

[TheRegime 0]

Hahah whatever Amscray different play styles my friend.Also to Tehtoe online I have mixed results cuz I tilt a lot online. But my cash games are way better online. My home game SNGs I play all the time for like $10 or $20 I am up $400 over 130 games. I keep a big excel sheet.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Hahah whatever Amscray different play styles my friend.Also to Tehtoe online I have mixed results cuz I tilt a lot online. But my cash games are way better online. My home game SNGs I play all the time for like $10 or $20 I am up $400 over 130 games. I keep a big excel sheet.

You must have missed my post. Your style sucks.

[wakiki 0]

TheRegime, you say we aren't factoring in the bluffing potential of our opponents, but are you factoring in your bluffing potential? Say you raise with 44 on the cutoff, the button folds, and the flop comes A-J-7. If it's checked around to you, you can almost always take this down with a continuation bet. People will be folding suited connectors that missed, pocket pairs higher than 5s, kings, sevens, and even weak aces depending on your opponents. If you hadn't raised with your 44 preflop, you wouldn't have had control of the hand, and this option would not be available to you. The way you are playing pocket pairs is weak, and no one at your table will fear you.As for the original post, if people have lots of blinds I wouldn't call an all-in with pocket pairs either. Some people just like to gamble.

[Vtlaxer09 4]

did you really not get my sarcasm... jesus christ... the internet is serious business.