Jacks Facing Heavy Action

[wakiki 0]

For some reason this hand isn't converting properly. Sorry.PokerStars Game #20314293044: Tournament #107510824, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/09/11 1:59:16 ETTable '107510824 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: roky8102 (1300 in chips) Seat 2: superawes0me (1490 in chips) Seat 3: JT Knudson (1260 in chips) Seat 4: MikeSorrie (1840 in chips) Seat 5: mr.p.mac (1470 in chips) Seat 6: pbycpoker (1280 in chips) Seat 7: bASSfISHER4 (720 in chips) Seat 8: zeebay.b (2410 in chips) Seat 9: Candlewaster (1730 in chips) pbycpoker: posts small blind 10bASSfISHER4: posts big blind 20*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to mr.p.mac [Js Jh]zeebay.b: calls 20Candlewaster: raises 60 to 80roky8102: folds superawes0me: calls 80JT Knudson: folds MikeSorrie: folds mr.p.mac: raises 140 to 220pbycpoker: calls 210bASSfISHER4: raises 140 to 360zeebay.b: folds Candlewaster: folds superawes0me: calls 280mr.p.mac: calls 140pbycpoker: calls 140*** FLOP *** [5d 3d Th]pbycpoker: bets 60bASSfISHER4: calls 60superawes0me: raises 1070 to 1130 and is all-inmr.p.mac: folds pbycpoker: calls 860 and is all-inbASSfISHER4: calls 300 and is all-inUncalled bet (210) returned to superawes0meLevel 1 of a microstakes tournament, no reads on anyone in particular, but the table has been pretty loose in general. What would you guys have done here?

[jmbreslin 0]

Early play in these can be pretty crazy but I'm not risking going broke with JJ this early against that much action. In fact, I'm not even reraising PF. I'd flat call and see what happens on the flop. Raises get very little respect in the early stages of micro stakes SnGs and you don't want to bloat the pot and end up seeing a flop against several opponents. In the first few levels of these you want to play very tight and cautious while the fish kill themselves off.

[Aces Rule 0]

Early play in these can be pretty crazy but I'm not risking going broke with JJ this early against that much action. In fact, I'm not even reraising PF. I'd flat call and see what happens on the flop. Raises get very little respect in the early stages of micro stakes SnGs and you don't want to bloat the pot and end up seeing a flop against several opponents. In the first few levels of these you want to play very tight and cautious while the fish kill themselves off.

Sounds about right especially just flatting the fist pfr. After Bassfisher re-raised I'd even fold PF as you're likely a 4-1 dog or at the very best in a race vs 3 overcards.

[wakiki 0]

Well, we have an interesting issue at stake here.Since we assume that these players are very bad, should we wait and outplay them later, or should we try to bust them here? The problem is, if we don't get those chips, some other better players will.Obviously we feel really dumb if we call and they show QQ, KK, AA, two pair, or a set. But we feel really bad if we fold the overpair and we see TPTK, flush draws, middle pair, etc.Just for the record, I came in 2nd in the tournament. Should have come in first, but it was getting late and I made a stupid all-in PF move out of laziness.I'm hoping some more people will post before I show the results of this hand.

[AimHigher 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 (t1300)MP2 (t1490)MP3 (t1260)CO (t1840)Hero (Button) (t1470)SB (t1280)BB (t720)UTG (t2410)UTG+1 (t1730)Preflop: Hero is Button with J, JUTG calls t20, UTG+1 raises to t80, 1 fold, MP2 calls t80, 2 folds, Hero raises to t220, SB calls t210, BB raises to t360, 2 folds, MP2 calls t280, Hero calls t140, SB calls t140Flop: (t1540) 5, 3, 10(4 players)SB bets t60, BB calls t60, MP2 raises to t1130 (All-In), Hero folds, SB calls t860 (All-In), BB calls t300 (All-In)Total pot: t3740I'm fine with 3-betting for value here. You're a 2:1 favorite over what I estimate to be UTG+1's range. I think if you do 3-bet for value you should bet an amount that will create a little fold equity and get more value for your hand though.Raising to about 320 is much better than 220. As played I don't see any way you can fold before the flop. You're calling 140 into a pot of 1540. Flop is an easy fold.

[wakiki 0]

Okay it sounds like the consensus is that I played it (roughly) correctly.Here's the thing that makes me so annoyed with these donkaments though:FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP1 (t1300)MP2 (t1490)MP3 (t1260)CO (t1840)mr.p.mac (Button) (t1470)SB (t1280)BB (t720)UTG (t2410)UTG+1 (t1730)Preflop: mr.p.mac is Button with J , J :heart:UTG calls t20, UTG+1 raises to t80, 1 fold, MP2 calls t80, 2 folds, mr.p.mac raises to t220, SB calls t210, BB raises to t360, 2 folds, MP2 calls t280, mr.p.mac calls t140, SB calls t140Flop: (t1540) 5 , 3 , 10 (4 players)SB bets t60, BB calls t60, MP2 raises to t1130 (All-In), mr.p.mac folds, SB calls t860 (All-In), BB calls t300 (All-In)Turn: (t3740) K (3 players, 3 all-in)River: (t3740) 7 (3 players, 3 all-in)Total pot: t3740Results below: SB had Q , J (high card, King).BB had 9 , A (high card, Ace).MP2 had 10 , A (one pair, tens).Outcome: MP2 won t3740I suppose that I should have raised bigger or not at all. If I raise bigger this will probably induce a donk-all-in or a fold, and I can call an all-in since JJ creams these guys range (people will be shoving with any pair, A6, etc. If I'm up against QQ+, that's just too bad.). And if I simply smooth called, I could play them like a low pair, hoping to hit a set. If I did that, should I fold to any action even if there are no overcards?And on a side note, double check what the BB called with. LOL.

[jmbreslin 0]

Honestly, over the long term you're better off not getting overinvolved so early with hands like this. This isn't an MTT, you don't need to take chances early to go for the double-up. Plus you have a skill advantage over these players so it makes more sense to wait until you can take advantage of your skill advantage. In a micro stakes MTT I'd probably be more than happy to get it all in this early with JJ. But in a STT I'm more interested in conserving my chips for the mid-late stages when those chips matter the most.

[Stuples 0]

But in a STT I'm more interested in conserving my chips for the mid-late stages when those chips matter the most.

What chips will those be when you're passing up opportunities as good as raising JJ preflop into fairly loose opponents?

I'm fine with 3-betting for value here. You're a 2:1 favorite over what I estimate to be UTG+1's range. I think if you do 3-bet for value you should bet an amount that will create a little fold equity and get more value for your hand though.Raising to about 320 is much better than 220. As played I don't see any way you can fold before the flop. You're calling 140 into a pot of 1540. Flop is an easy fold.

I agree with raising more preflop. You should be looking to either end it here or take 1 or 2 people with you to the flop.If MP2 had better than JJ preflop, I think he would of reraised, rather than let more people into the pot by calling, so you could put him fairly easily on a flush draw.

[Poker Addict 0]

MTT's are marathons not sprints...okay, whatever. Flat pre. Don't be results oriented. And as far as the line of thinking that if you don't get those chips than some other decent payer will - WELL that is just hogwash. You have to be putting your opponents on ranges and how your hand holds up against those ranges. When it is a multi player pot you have to put your hand up against all of their ranges and how well it holds up.If your goal is to become a better player then play strong, solid poker while you build up your roll to play larger buy in tournys. You do not have to take down EVERY pot where you are ahead. What you need to do is survive and chip up in better spots to give you the best chance of winning. For most weak players, it is about the gambloool, the aggression, the bluffing to build their egos not their bankrolls. That is why these are so profitable. If you are trying to win money over the long run then just focus on playing solid poker. NOT RESULTS

[Poker Addict 0]

What chips will those be when you're passing up opportunities as good as raising JJ preflop into fairly loose opponents?

You are overvaluing JJ early in a MTT. Actually watching a Rizen video last night where he specifically says that he values JJ equal to TT early in a tournament - in first few levels before antes come into play. You are looking for position and to chip up early. Later in the tournament your play will change with JJ.Reraising with JJ against loose passive players is bad. If they will fold, this is different, but you are going to get calls from all sorts of hands and have no idea where you are at on the flop and beyond. Am I saying that playing for set value only with JJ? NO. But on a flush draw board anyone with two diamonds is going all the way here. And even those with a naked Ad will go for it. There are better spots. If you can't lay down the best hand or second best hand in a tournament, then you will not go very far.

[Poker Addict 0]

OOOPS its a STT. LOOOOOLZThat makes it an easy lay down. You want all kinds of action from these guys early. I am not playing JJ for a raise ever in a STT against multiple opponents.And in some cases, I will just lay it down. There is no reason to get involved early with marginal holdings. Does doubling up right now increase your odds of winning by that much?

[Mercury69 3]

cram it

[wakiki 0]

Maybe I should have just gone AIPF lol. People will call you with silly hands and the only things I have to worry about are QQ, KK, and AA.Another thing to factor in here is that if I bust out early, I can just go jump into another tournament. It could hurt my ROI, but help my hourly rate.Poker Addict, I think your logic about flush draw boards doesn't make sense. If I know that someone is going to call all-in with a flush draw, does that mean I should be more aggressive on these boards? After all, if I can give them horrible odds and they call, I will make money in the long run. When I saw two diamonds on that board, that actually made me want to call it more, since more bad hands would be calling the all-in, and not just sets / 2pr. So actually I take the exact opposite logic about flush draws.Is it possible to calculate how often someone here will show up with TPTK, a flush draw, a middle pair, or just air versus an overpair, a set, or two pair?

[copernicus 0]

Maybe I should have just gone AIPF lol. People will call you with silly hands and the only things I have to worry about are QQ, KK, and AA.Another thing to factor in here is that if I bust out early, I can just go jump into another tournament. It could hurt my ROI, but help my hourly rate.Poker Addict, I think your logic about flush draw boards doesn't make sense. If I know that someone is going to call all-in with a flush draw, does that mean I should be more aggressive on these boards? After all, if I can give them horrible odds and they call, I will make money in the long run. When I saw two diamonds on that board, that actually made me want to call it more, since more bad hands would be calling the all-in, and not just sets / 2pr. So actually I take the exact opposite logic about flush draws.Is it possible to calculate how often someone here will show up with TPTK, a flush draw, a middle pair, or just air versus an overpair, a set, or two pair?

You are both correct. IF you can give them horrible odds then you'll make more money bringing them along. the problem is that as soon as you add any other outs to a flush draw you arent giving them horrible odds any longer. (you dont know that his diamonds are counterfeited)Against a flush draw and one overcard you are barely a favorite, and against a flush draw with 2 overcards your a decided underdog.On the probability questions..yes its possible.Enumerate how many hands of each type he would have played preflop and then pushed with, and then you hae the probability of each one and your equity against each one. But without going through all that work, you should have a pretty good feel for it and know that what you do here is small + or small -EV in the long run. He could be playing any Ax of diamonds, and the net of those is pretty much a coinflip. He could have overpairs or underpairs, pretty much the same number of hands (especially if you give the better ones a little extra weight since 99 or less may not push vs an overcard + flush draw) and because the low pairs are now sets. Would two non diamond overcards push? unlikely. would Ad5x and Ad3x push? unlikely. Since you almost certainly arent giving up a lot of EV by folding, why gamble now?