Analysis Of Pocket Aces Versus Suited Connectors

[colonel Feathers 5]

I'm pasting my post from this thread here http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=127568The OP was talking about how he has difficulty playing pocket Aces. Here's my 2-cents worth:Actually, I tend to understand OP's post. Texas Dolly once said that with Aces or Kings, you either win small pot or lose a big one.That's why I like playing suited connectors. Remember, Holdem is a game of outs. With suited connectors, you hope to either make a flush or straight, also the occasional trips or fullhouse, or even a lone pair that beats an unimproved AK.With a flush draw, you have 9 outs. With a straight draw, you have 8 outs. And since occasionally, you can also win with a single pair or trips/fullhouse, you have another 6 outs. That makes a total of 23 outs with a suited connector.Aces on the other hand only have 2 outs since you can only improve to a set. That's why I make more money with suited connectors. Recognize the power of outs.What do you all think? Am I right to adopt this outs-based line of thinking?To prove my point, over the last month, 50K hands at 100NL, I am a slight loser -$103 with pocket Aces while for my suited connectors 65s-AKs, I am up about $1,500 overall.I'm posting this in General because it gets more traffic and I hope to hear what ya'll have to say.Thanks.

Noone has mentioned the fact that aces dont always need outs, while suited connectors always do need outs.

[Rs Hawk 0]

Noone has mentioned the fact that aces dont always need outs, while suited connectors always do need outs.

Thats becuz the OP refuses to examine anything other than their theory

[AcesUp46 0]

Noone has mentioned the fact that aces dont always need outs, while suited connectors always do need outs.

You don't seem to recognize the power of outs. You can keep your Aces and I'll gun you down with my 29 outs. Good luck.

[AcesUp46 0]

OP your thought on PLO plz?

PLO plays like Texas Holdem. Unfortunately, it's not the Cadillac version. Neither is it the game that some professionals won't play.Nonetheless, you can see that in PLO, the best hands are double suited connectors. Why? Cos of the outs. You can use the same line of reasoning and correctly deduce that suited connectors are powerful in Holdem.

[Dictius 0]

this whole thread is pretty LOL

[jmbreslin 0]

Umm, what was the original question again?

[NoSup4U 0]

What you're missing though, is that AA can only be made 6 ways. Suited connectors can me made like a million ways. You're really up more with those 6 hands than all your suited connectors combined? I doubt it.

By this argument then, I get to include all big pairs if you get to include all suited connectors. You pick any 4 suited connectors and I'll pick AA/KK/QQ/JJ and I guarantee I'm up more with my big hands. As a matter of fact, I'd let you pick ANY 15 combinations of cards that aren't pairs and I'm still up more with my big pairs.Mark

[troyomac 0]

By this argument then, I get to include all big pairs if you get to include all suited connectors. You pick any 4 suited connectors and I'll pick AA/KK/QQ/JJ and I guarantee I'm up more with my big hands. As a matter of fact, I'd let you pick ANY 15 combinations of cards that aren't pairs and I'm still up more with my big pairs.Mark

It's really hard to calculate this since you get AA way more often than any particular suited connector. Like if you get an A dealt to you on the first card you have 3 more aces to hit. But if I get the 7s on my first card, there's only the 6s and 8s to give me my wired suited connectors. So you obv win more with AA because you get it more often.

[mtdesmoines 3]

I'm pasting my post from this thread here http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...howtopic=127568The OP was talking about how he has difficulty playing pocket Aces. Here's my 2-cents worth:Actually, I tend to understand OP's post. Texas Dolly once said that with Aces or Kings, you either win small pot or lose a big one.That's why I like playing suited connectors. Remember, Holdem is a game of outs. With suited connectors, you hope to either make a flush or straight, also the occasional trips or fullhouse, or even a lone pair that beats an unimproved AK.With a flush draw, you have 9 outs. With a straight draw, you have 8 outs. And since occasionally, you can also win with a single pair or trips/fullhouse, you have another 6 outs. That makes a total of 23 outs with a suited connector.Aces on the other hand only have 2 outs since you can only improve to a set. That's why I make more money with suited connectors. Recognize the power of outs.What do you all think? Am I right to adopt this outs-based line of thinking?To prove my point, over the last month, 50K hands at 100NL, I am a slight loser -$103 with pocket Aces while for my suited connectors 65s-AKs, I am up about $1,500 overall.I'm posting this in General because it gets more traffic and I hope to hear what ya'll have to say.Thanks.

AA is just another hand. There are many hands. There are many positions. There are many opponents.Players should learn to play them all.

[Monty27 0]

Questions?

[TommyGavin81 0]

Questions?

I GOT ONE! I GOT ONE!Are all people in Omaha this vulnerable to sarcasm or is it just you?

[Mercury69 3]

It's really hard to calculate this since you get AA way more often than any particular suited connector. Like if you get an A dealt to you on the first card you have 3 more aces to hit. But if I get the 7s on my first card, there's only the 6s and 8s to give me my wired suited connectors. So you obv win more with AA because you get it more often.

I'd love to see this expressed as an equation.

[NoSup4U 0]

It's really hard to calculate this since you get AA way more often than any particular suited connector. Like if you get an A dealt to you on the first card you have 3 more aces to hit. But if I get the 7s on my first card, there's only the 6s and 8s to give me my wired suited connectors. So you obv win more with AA because you get it more often.

Yes!!! ;)Mark

[mtdesmoines 3]

It's really hard to calculate this since you get AA way more often than any particular suited connector. Like if you get an A dealt to you on the first card you have 3 more aces to hit. But if I get the 7s on my first card, there's only the 6s and 8s to give me my wired suited connectors. So you obv win more with AA because you get it more often.

NO ONE IS TAKING THIS THREAD SERIOUSLY. dammit.

[AcesUp46 0]

Questions?

Keep plugging in your starting hands into poker calculators without seeing the flop. Once the flop comes, I'll shoot you down with my 29 outs. Good luck

[Nashtak 0]

I'm a little bit confused here. Beside the fact that nobody take this thread seriously, is it really like a joke or some people actually believe suited connectors > Pocket Aces. I find this is a really long and boring joke if it is.PS: You can't have 29 outs after flop.

[pokerinc 0]

I'm a little bit confused here. Beside the fact that nobody take this thread seriously, is it really like a joke or some people actually believe suited connectors > Pocket Aces. I find this is a really long and boring joke if it is.PS: You can't have 29 outs after flop.

true only on the turn.

[chgocubs99 0]

I'm a little bit confused here. Beside the fact that nobody take this thread seriously, is it really like a joke or some people actually believe suited connectors > Pocket Aces. I find this is a really long and boring joke if it is.PS: You can't have 29 outs after flop.

I'm with you newb, but the masses are apparently against us

[Gallo 1]

AA sucks, fyi!!Full Tilt Poker Game #7887758941: Table Camino Entrada - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 5:59:53 ET - 2008/09/01Seat 1: EchoHelmet ($32)Seat 2: Kobe81MVP ($66.90)Seat 3: GalloFX ($75.80)Seat 4: antipoker81 ($187.90)Seat 5: powerhand888 ($27.20)Seat 6: flisan192 ($15.45)Seat 7: super2dfx ($118.60)Seat 8: Bean1949 ($11)Seat 9: jarsc ($174.90)GalloFX posts the small blind of $0.50antipoker81 posts the big blind of $1The button is in seat #2*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to GalloFX [7d 4d]powerhand888 foldsflisan192 calls $1powerhand888 stands upsuper2dfx raises to $5Bean1949 foldsjarsc foldsTalin222 adds $100EchoHelmet has 15 seconds left to actEchoHelmet foldsKobe81MVP foldsGalloFX calls $4.50antipoker81 foldsflisan192 calls $4*** FLOP *** [5d 3s 9h]GalloFX checksflisan192 checkssuper2dfx bets $10GalloFX calls $10flisan192 raises to $10.45, and is all insuper2dfx has 15 seconds left to actsuper2dfx calls $0.45GalloFX calls $0.45*** TURN *** [5d 3s 9h] [6d]GalloFX checkssuper2dfx has 15 seconds left to actsuper2dfx bets $30GalloFX has 15 seconds left to actGalloFX raises to $60.35, and is all insuper2dfx calls $30.35GalloFX shows [7d 4d]flisan192 shows [Kd 8d]super2dfx shows [Ac Ad]*** RIVER *** [5d 3s 9h 6d] [Kh]GalloFX shows a straight, Seven highsuper2dfx shows a pair of AcesGalloFX wins the side pot ($120.05) with a straight, Seven highflisan192 shows a pair of KingsGalloFX wins the main pot ($45) with a straight, Seven highflisan192 is sitting out*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $168.05 Main pot $47.35. Side pot $120.70. | Rake $3Board: [5d 3s 9h 6d Kh]Seat 1: EchoHelmet didn't bet (folded)Seat 2: Kobe81MVP (button) didn't bet (folded)Seat 3: GalloFX (small blind) showed [7d 4d] and won ($165.05) with a straight, Seven highSeat 4: antipoker81 (big blind) folded before the FlopSeat 5: powerhand888 didn't bet (folded)Seat 6: flisan192 showed [Kd 8d] and lost with a pair of KingsSeat 7: super2dfx showed [Ac Ad] and lost with a pair of AcesSeat 8: Bean1949 didn't bet (folded)Seat 9: jarsc didn't bet (folded)/thread*Ok, they weren't connected, but they were sooooooted.

[Gallo 1]

Oh and someone should talk to this guy about AA.http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...c=86942&hl=

[Monty27 0]

I GOT ONE! I GOT ONE!Are all people in Omaha this vulnerable to sarcasm or is it just you?

Only people who haven't read the whole thread and upon reading the whole thing feel like a moron.

[wakiki 0]

Well, obviously alot depends on the luck factor. A player with a higher luck factor will have about 35 outs with suited connectors, while a lower luck factor player will have roughly 24. Still, a lower luck factor player will have more outs than someone with aces no matter what.

[copernicus 0]

That's true but with a qualifier.AA tends to win small pots about 75% of the time and win big pots about 5% of the time.It tends to lose big pots maybe 10% of the time and small/medium pots about 10% of the time.Even that's likely being somewhat pessimistic but it's clearly a far cry from saying that AA wins small pots and loses big pots in equal numbers.

#%$&** wrote a long analysis of what the implications of those %s are by applying profit sizes to each of the events. I get a realistic range of -.5bb to +3bb. Consistent with AA overall being a small winner.For the mid-suited connector case try these on for size for a tight table:PF investment averages 2 bb (if its more youre playing them too much)On the flop the average total pot is 6 bb when its folded and 14 when its bet and called. Heros investment is 2 and 6 respectively.2/3 of the time the hand is folded on the flop for -4/3 bb, 1/9 of the time it takes down the flop on a semibluff for an average of say 6 bb profit or +2/3 bb equity. When it goes to the turn or river and hits..another 1/9 of the time overall, it picks up a medium to big pot for say 36bb average for +4bb equity and 1/9 of the time it has to fold on the turn after paying say 18 bb for -2bb. Overall +1bb. You can easily see the range of AA being duplicated at this tight table. If youve got a fish on the line who will go for a 60+bb stack you get well above the +3bb top side for AA.

[bull62 0]

/threadFull Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comSB ($31.40)BB ($40.10)UTG ($13)Hero (MP) ($125.95)Button ($56.35)Preflop: Hero is MP with 2 folds, Button raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.25, 1 foldFlop: ($3.50) (2 players)SB checks, Button bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50Turn: ($10.50) (2 players)SB checks, Button bets $9, SB raises to $26.40 (All-In), Button calls $17.40River: ($63.30) (2 players, 1 all-in)Total pot: $63.30 | Rake: $3Results in white below: Button had A A (two pair, Aces and Kings).SB had 6 5 (flush , King high).Outcome: SB won $63.30

[AcesUp46 0]

Well, obviously alot depends on the luck factor. A player with a higher luck factor will have about 35 outs with suited connectors, while a lower luck factor player will have roughly 24. Still, a lower luck factor player will have more outs than someone with aces no matter what.

In my analysis, I have made it clear that you maximize your luck factor by playing suited connectors rather than Aces.