open ended draw

[haganation 0]

Just out of curiousity, what's your standard play when bet into while holding an open-ended straight draw? I know the particulars matter so I will offer these two hypotheticals;A) Cash game, $500 in front of you. Blinds are $1 and $2. On the button in an unraised pot you make it $8 to go with JT. Small blind (new to the table- no read on him- has $500 in front of him) calls quickly. Flop comes 9Q3 rainbow. Small blind guy bets $15. What do you do?B) Online SNG. Level 2, 8 players remain. You're dealt 99 in middle position. UTG raises the big blind of T30 to T120. You call, all others fold. Flop is 810J rainbow. T285 in the pot, UTG bets T200. His stack is large, you're on a middling stack of T1100. What do you do?In situation A, I think I raise, although a lot of people like to call with nice draws. I get more of a feel on his hand, and the board is less threatening overall. I think I fold in situation B, as the price isn't right in relation to my stack size. I'm crippled if a blank hits 4th. Thoughts?

[Comatose_Soul 0]

A - I probably make it 50 to go, although that depends on the feel of the table.B - Fold. UTG raised, and lead out. Even if a Q comes you have to worry about AK. Best card for you would be a 7. Not sure I want to put another T200 in hoping for 1 of four 7s.

[akishore 0]

playing draws in any NL game is extremely read-dependent. let me explain.situation A: SB bets$15 into an $18 pot. you are getting roughly 2-to-1.with two cards to come, your equity is roughly 35% (though it's 25% against a set), so you can't really raise for value here.with one card to come, you need pot odds of around 4.5-to-1 to call. since you're only getting 2-to-1, you need to be sure you're going to win around $40 more if you hit on the turn. if you don't hit on the turn, you're going to be facing a bigger bet with probably similar pot odds, your implied odds will be drastically lower, and you will have made a very -EV flop move (since it's too late to get paid off via implied odds on the turn).so, you could raise for a free card. let's examine the EV of that though.let's say you make a min raise--very sneaky and it probably will get you a free card on the turn. so you're putting in $30 into a $48 pot in total flop action, giving you pot odds of 1.5-to-1. so, and you need 2-to-1 with two cards to come, so you need to earn just $15 more by showdown.let's say you make a pot-sized raise, e.g. a raise to $60. now, you've put money in on the flop with pot odds of 1.25-to-1, but you've drastically screwed your implied odds. now, are you going to check the turn or semi-bluff the turn (assuming you miss)? a raise like this almost needs to be followed through with since you have good fold equity, so you committ yourself to semi-bluffing the turn. but if you check for a free card, you need to earn more than $45 more by showdown if you get the free card.will you be able to do either? almost certainly. but here is where the reads become very important.assume you call:1. a loose-passive player might check to you on the turn if an A or K lands or if the board pairs. you can check behind for a free card (semi-bluffing is futile against a calling station). so, you've called a bet getting better than 2-to-1 pot odds, with two cards to come, so with implied odds, your flop play is way +EV.2. a loose-aggressive player will bet big again on the turn. if you hit, great, but if you miss, you have to fold.3. a tight-passive player might check-fold to a turn semi-bluff (assuming you miss). so, you call with the intention of raising or betting (if he checks) any turn.4. a tight-aggressive player will be unpredictable. he might bet again on the turn if you miss, or he might checkraise if you attempt a semi-bluff. you can't depend on a free card, and you can expect to fold on the turn if you miss. worse, if you hit, you might not get the implied odds, especially if he senses you hit your draw.assume you raise:1. a loose-passive player will check-call down, so again, this is good.2. a loose-aggressive player might reraise you, or pull another stop-and-go by betting big on the turn. since you've made the pot bigger, you've screwed your implied odds badly.3. a tight-passive player might check-fold the turn. so this is okay.4. a tight-aggressive player might reraise, or pull another stop-and-go. he might also fold if you hit on the turn, so you don't have certain implied odds. against this type of player, you will also need to attack the turn, and you might get check-raised if you miss and semi-bluff. if you check behind on the turn, he will detect the draw and the weakness, and you might not be able to pull this move on him many more times.so what i'm saying is, with incorrect pot odds like in your example, deciding what to do with the draw is all about implied odds, and implied odds are all about player reads.without a read on the SB, i would just call there, or maybe min raise.if SB was loose-passive, i'll min raise for a free card with the best implied odds.if the SB was loose-aggressive, i would call with the intention of folding a missed turn and extracting as much value as possible if i hit the turn. i can't expect to go past the turn, though, and i can't afford to raise for a free card since i have to fear a checkraise or a stop-and-go.if the SB was tight-passive, i would make a raise somewhere between minimum and pot-sized. i would do it with the intention of betting on any turn, semi-bluffing or not.if the SB was tight-aggressive, i would fold this, OR i would make it a point to mix up my game. i would call once with the intention of folding a missed turn, another time i might min raise, another time i might make a pot-sized raise and play it aggressively. i would strongly lean towards folding, though, or simply calling and folding a missed turn.aseem

[haganation 0]

As I mentioned, in situation A, there is no read yet. I like the raise in the absence of a read, because it accomplishes a couple things. There is ccertainly some fold value, justifying the move (in my eyes) and probably unlocking a free look at two cards. The odds of getting there are based on seeing two cards, and calling really opens the door to a frustrating fold on fourth if a blank hits. I don't know about the mini-raise, I haven't really incorporated that into my game, although I can see your point on it having deceptive value. Of course, there is nothing wrong with taking the pot down right then and there, and although the mini-raise represents super-strength, it also is somewhat of invitation to call. Thanks for the detailed look.

[DCWildcat 0]

I think you gotta drop it. Don't have the odds on it.