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Qq In 3bet Pot, Tricky Flop Deep


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So we're not bluffing, but we're raising with the hope that he folds? Given the amount in the pot, him folding is quite possibly going to be good for us with a lot of his holding, but given how his range looks, the most like assumptions we can make are. 1. He's going to shove or fold once we raise(I think that's fair no?)2. There are a lot of hands he's shoving withBy raise/folding we're giving up far far far too much equity I think as he's going to be shoving hands like AJhh and random drawy-ish crap. If we raise/fold we're basically stone cold bluffing, and I think this would be a prettty bad board to stone cold bluff on. Again, you're focusing more on what is easiest and not what the best decision is, if we wanted easy decisions we'd just raise/fold at every oppurtunity. There will be situations like this where 4-betting with the assumption that he'll fold all worse hands and ship all better ones will be profitable because his 3-betting range is too wide. But, this most likely isn't one of them, and just because something is profitable is doesn't mean it's the MOST profitable course of action.
this is such an excellent post. I really recommend re-reading this for those that are having trouble either w/this hand or understanding it.First bold line is so huge. It's such an important line of logic that gets commonly confused. "oh man it's so draw heavy, I raise my overpair! Please fold!"as for the second bold line, Sheiky touched on a very important concept. You don't want to find the easiest decision. You want to strive to make the highest EV play. This doesn't mean engaging yourself in every single tough spot but it also means you shouldn't be avoiding them if you can help it. Sure, you could 4bet fold QQ but now you're really just "raising for information" which is a stupid stupid move and you're not getting max value out of your hand. Wouldn't you rather 4bet bluff with a hand you wouldn't want to see a flop with rather than a strong one like QQ? This is a spot to use your position and play poker.
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So what did OP do / your own thoughts about the situation?
I decided that villain had been playing back a lot and I likely had the best hand and wanted to protect vs draws so I raise/called. I think I should have called though, more to protect my stack. I can probably safely fold to a turn bet.He ended up with 8d9d here. I picked up a backdoor heart draw on the turn but bricked the river.
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as for the second bold line, Sheiky touched on a very important concept. You don't want to find the easiest decision. You want to strive to make the highest EV play.
That's why I size my bets the way that I do. =)I think seeking out easier decisions is great when you're beginning to play poker. It builds your confidence and gradually eases you into making bigger decisions. As you grow, you can seek to maximize your value by putting yourself in somewhat trickier spots.
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how can we not 4bet and fold to a shove. we only need to get him to fold which will be a pretty big % of time because the chips that you pick up there are enough to make it +EV. also i think 4 handed he will sometimes shovel with QQ / JJ / AK too (a villain without a read.). if we get him to fold AK thats awesome.

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That's why I size my bets the way that I do. =)I think seeking out easier decisions is great when you're beginning to play poker. It builds your confidence and gradually eases you into making bigger decisions. As you grow, you can seek to maximize your value by putting yourself in somewhat trickier spots.
oh god. let's not get into this betsizing war because I think you're missing out on too much value sizing the way you do.http://www.pokerhand.org/?2945554would you get 75bbs with your sizing?!??!
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how can we not 4bet and fold to a shove. we only need to get him to fold which will be a pretty big % of time because the chips that you pick up there are enough to make it +EV. also i think 4 handed he will sometimes shovel with QQ / JJ / AK too (a villain without a read.). if we get him to fold AK thats awesome.
Travis, you have to understand, in poker, greed is a great thing. Do you understand what I meant by striving for the highest EV? You want to make the move that brings in THE MOST PROFIT. I mean you kind of have the right idea pointing out that it is a +ev move to take down the pot preflop but think about it this way from a greedy standpoint, why would you want to 4bet and only take down $42 preflop with a hand as good as QQ? Sure, villain outflopped us here, but there will be times where he hits a board like 923 with a flush draw there, or JTx, or just a random flop that he will at least CBET once. So by calling, you stand to pick up about $100 now if he cbets frequently (the math isn't completely accurate, but it's an example) and you may also get his stack depending on the board and his stupidity.Maybe it was this thread, someone mentioned how hard it is to play JJ in a 3bet. Imagine if he did and he flopped an over pair? How many bets will you get out of him AT LEAST if he doesn't stack off completely? 2 bets. $60 cbet into an $80 pot, now bringing the total to $140, and if he calls or fires the second one, that's probably a $100 bet. Now you've managed to pick up $200 all because you called rather than simply $42 preflop.Simple examples but I think they demonstrate the point. Don't be satisfied with just getting a fold. Really think about if what you're doing IS the highest ev. No one has posted a difficult enough situation to warrant folding out someone else's hand because the situation is too tough.This situation is far from one of the many trickier tougher spots you'll be put in.
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oh god. let's not get into this betsizing war because I think you're missing out on too much value sizing the way you do.http://www.pokerhand.org/?2945554would you get 75bbs with your sizing?!??!
Final pot probably would've been about $500 with mine. (It would've been the same if I had QsJs also...so I would've saved in that case.)
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Final pot probably would've been about $500 with mine. (It would've been the same if I had QsJs also...so I would've saved in that case.)
marchant, the point of the river bet was that I knew he was calling w/worse. I'm not going to fire a hopeless 3rd barrel because I think it's great in a vacuum for balancing purposes. If we were talking about playing in a vacuums, perhaps your case may be stronger. It depends, I think the immediate threat of a bigger bet has more FE than the future threat of another bet - but that's a tough one to prove.Point is, if you play a good exploitative game (not saying you aren't), I think you miss too much value by betting less than 3/4 pot
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Am I really weak if I'm actually considering outright folding on the flop? We're behind AA/KK from the getgo, TT and JJ got there. The draw is incredibly drawy, with us catching none of it (other than the runner runner 3rd nuts). I think that by contuining in this hand, we make a lot less when we're ahead, but lose a lot more when we're behind here. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I think it sounds weak, but I don't really think calling is optimal here, especially since we're essentially going to the turn with a good chance we're behind and no outs.And I have no idea about preflop. I would probably have 4 bet, but I think some of the discussion here has made me reconsider.

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I have not read all the responses yet, but I think calling pre is good.now on the flop i call and evaluate the turn because he is c betting almost 100% of his range. If the turn comes a Heart or an A and he leads again I may decide to peal one more on the thinking that those are great cards for him to rep a big hand. now if the turn comes a complete blank i would lean more towards a fold since he is repping a much more narrow range. now on to read the rest of the post

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