86 With Top Pair

[mellinac 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO (t1020)Button (t1425)Hero (t1085)BB (t1810)UTG (t1340)UTG+1 (t2065)MP1 (t3040)MP2 (t1715)Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 6. 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, Button calls t30, Hero completes, BB checks.Flop: (t150) 3, 6, 3(5 players)Final Pot: t150Hero bets 90, BB, raises 135 to 225, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, mellinac ???Easy fold post flop? Should I call the 15 and speculate preflop with odds? Thanks for the help.

[donk4life 34]

Limp PF is fine.Definite fold on the flop.. I might even check the flop and if someone bets I'd fold...

[MovingIn 0]

Even given stack, pot and blind sizes, bets under 100 TC on the flop in multiway pots usually receive little respect. Given it's early, with no reads, it's probably an easy fold as played. But if villain is aggressive, this could just be an aggressive bluff... but it could just as easily be a 3, an overpair, or a stronger 6. We don't know, because our flop bet is relatively weak, making a reraise difficult to interpret. In the early levels, we need to be willing to bet a flop aggressively when we hit it, even in a multiway pot, due to the small size of the pots inviting playback.The limp is totally acceptable. We want to see cheap flops with spec hands multiway in the early levels.

[Aces Rule 0]

No, I don't think it's an easy fold. Although you have TP your kicker isn't anything to bank on. BB may have a 3 and he may have a 6 with a better kicker but he may also have 77+. He may even be bluffing although with 3 limper to act that is less likely if this player is aware.You're biggest problem is being so short of chips you can't play poker postflop and lose (i.e you have to win or you'll be crippled) which forces you to either take a huge risk and see it through to sd or be more conservative and save those chips for a better oportunity. So, given this senerio, the more prudent and a difficult choice would be to lay it down while the riskier and equally dificult choice would be to try and check it down or even push (probably better) if your decision is to go to sd. You should realize the BB will likely make it very expensive on the turn if he doesn't put you on to a set of 3s so a semi-bluff push might win it on the flop - either way you're putting your tiurney life on the line in most cases.

[donk4life 34]

No, I don't think it's an easy fold. Although you have TP your kicker isn't anything to bank on. BB may have a 3 and he may have a 6 with a better kicker but he may also have 77+. He may even be bluffing although with 3 limper to act that is less likely if this player is aware.You're biggest problem is being so short of chips you can't play poker postflop and lose (i.e you have to win or you'll be crippled) which forces you to either take a huge risk and see it through to sd or be more conservative and save those chips for a better oportunity. So, given this senerio, the more prudent and a difficult choice would be to lay it down while the riskier and equally dificult choice would be to try and check it down or even push (probably better) if your decision is to go to sd. You should realize the BB will likely make it very expensive on the turn if he doesn't put you on to a set of 3s so a semi-bluff push might win it on the flop - either way you're putting your tiurney life on the line in most cases.

Lol, this is why this makes this hand an easy fold.The BB raised us when he's OOP against 3 other players, you think he's going to be doing this with anything that DOESN'T beat us?.

[jmbreslin 0]

The limp is totally acceptable. We want to see cheap flops with spec hands multiway in the early levels.

Eh, not so much a priority in STTs. And 86s doesn't have a whole lot of speculative value. Nothing wrong with folding this PF.

[AimHigher 0]

Eh, not so much a priority in STTs. And 86s doesn't have a whole lot of speculative value. Nothing wrong with folding this PF.

I disagree, we are getting 9:1 to see a flop in a 5 way pot.

[MovingIn 0]

Eh, not so much a priority in STTs. And 86s doesn't have a whole lot of speculative value. Nothing wrong with folding this PF.

Not even from the blinds unraised? That's awfully nitty.

[jmbreslin 0]

Yeah, but I have no problem being awfully nitty in the early stages of a STT, especially after I've already blown 1/3 of my stack.

[outsider13 0]

Preflop play is fine. Remember why you are playing this hand though. You are playing it for flush and straight possibilities, or possibly 2 pair. When I hit one pair like this oop, even though it is top pair, I'll check and treat it like I whiffed the flop. Because it's a 5 way limped pot, you just don't have enough information about the other 5 to play this hand aggressively. You can be playing against 77+, 3x, 6 w/ better kicker....I'd just check, and hope to see the next card cheap. If not, no point in wasting chips in this spot.

[cdipierr 0]

Yeah, but I have no problem being awfully nitty in the early stages of a STT, especially after I've already blown 1/3 of my stack.

Wow, folding this here preflop is awful. 15 chips does not matter to our stack even if we've "blown" 1/3rd of it.As for the flop, check, fold to a bet. Or as played, fold to the raise.

[mk 11]

Wow, folding this here preflop is awful. 15 chips does not matter to our stack even if we've "blown" 1/3rd of it.

it isn't awful by any means, it's correct esp w/ hero down to ~30 BBsi'd want to be more like 50 BB deep to play this hand in position, and yeah we're obv oop for all postflop play here

[MovingIn 0]

Yeah, but I have no problem being awfully nitty in the early stages of a STT, especially after I've already blown 1/3 of my stack.

Nitting the remaining 2/3rds and waiting for a premium hand is -EV. Take a shot at winning the lost part back and more while the blinds are low and the cost to see a flop is low.

[jmbreslin 0]

Folding is certainly not awful. This isn't an MTT - the early stages of STTs are all about chip preservation. Even though it's only 15 chips this is a very low reward hand. Unless I hit the gin flop of 457 or 88x/66x, I'm not going anywhere with it. Even if I flop the flush I have to worry about a better flush in a multi-way pot. My guess is that the odds of hitting one of those flops is far worse than 9-1.

[AimHigher 0]

You need 20:1 implied odds to play a speculative hand. Our stack is 1085, we're getting 9:1 and it costs us 15 to call.1085 / 15 = 72So basically, we have combined pot and implied odds of 81:1. I agree that folding would be better if we were shorter, but it is easily +cEV and +$EV to take a flop here.

[Mercury69 3]

I think it's worth seeing a flop. Whether or not I lead the betting with this is another question. If I do lead, I have a three pronged plan: Fold to a raise or take the pot down there or see a player or two call and get a turn card, possibly a free river, depending on the turn.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Please complete here. Also, we need to bet/fold the flop or check/call it...though if you want to be weak, I suppose I can see check/fold.As for this bet size being "weak"...this board is so ridiculously dry...I might even bet like T80. People aren't just randomly going to bluff-raise your "weak bet" here when you're betting out from the SB multi-way on this flop.

[jmbreslin 0]

You need 20:1 implied odds to play a speculative hand. Our stack is 1085, we're getting 9:1 and it costs us 15 to call.1085 / 15 = 72So basically, we have combined pot and implied odds of 81:1. I agree that folding would be better if we were shorter, but it is easily +cEV and +$EV to take a flop here.

Yeah but this also assumes you're going to get all your chips in and get called, which is highly unlikely on a great flop for this hand. Anyway, I'm not going to beat this horse - I might even complete depending on the day - but I just don't agree that you have to complete here.

[Poker Addict 0]

Preflop play is fine. Remember why you are playing this hand though. You are playing it for flush and straight possibilities, or possibly 2 pair. When I hit one pair like this oop, even though it is top pair, I'll check and treat it like I whiffed the flop. Because it's a 5 way limped pot, you just don't have enough information about the other 5 to play this hand aggressively. You can be playing against 77+, 3x, 6 w/ better kicker....I'd just check, and hope to see the next card cheap. If not, no point in wasting chips in this spot.

I agree with everything said here except the first sentence.Depending on my mood I will complete here. But I will fold this A LOT! And I have watched plenty of CR and PXF videos where they specifically address this. That throwing in money here to complete is -EV in the long run. Because, ok, you hit this flop with top pair. You lead out. You get raised. You HAVE to fold. This pot cost you 105 more, not 15 more. That is 10% of our stack at this point. To get odds to cover this, you would need a hell of a lot more then to simply stack someone at these stack sizes when you do hit gin. Which more then likely you will not be able to stack someone anyway because your perfect flop misses almost everyone else.At 15/30 I am folding everything but ultra premium hands.And if you do call here. Check folding that flop is more often then not the right move. The problem with speculative hands is that they partially hit a lot of flops. And that costs us money being out of position and weak.

[Poker Addict 0]

Please complete here. Also, we need to bet/fold the flop or check/call it...though if you want to be weak, I suppose I can see check/fold.As for this bet size being "weak"...this board is so ridiculously dry...I might even bet like T80. People aren't just randomly going to bluff-raise your "weak bet" here when you're betting out from the SB multi-way on this flop.

Wow, I just read this and I have to disagree with the first paragraph almost 100%. I think on the flop check/fold>>bet/fold>>>>>check/call

[jmbreslin 0]

Yeah, being "weak" on the flop here is perfectly appropriate. Committing chips with hands like 86s on any flop other than a gin flop has got to be majorly -ev.That said, I don't agree with the "only premium hands at 15/30" approach. I'm completing hands like Axs and probably JTs here because they don't need the gin flop to have value.

[Poker Addict 0]

That said, I don't agree with the "only premium hands at 15/30" approach. I'm completing hands like Axs and probably JTs here because they don't need the gin flop to have value.

Was more referring to Hero being down to 1000 chips already in the second level. Unless he ran into a couple coolers, generally this combined with the approach with 86soooted kind of indicates to me that he plays way too many hands early. That could be off, but wanted to throw it out there. I'm fine with completing in limped pots with a wider range, not too wide though. Some people never fold in the SB in an unraised pot and complete with any two. This is very often a huge leak.

[whatgreatis 0]

Some people never fold in the SB in an unraised pot and complete with any two. This is very often a huge leak.

QFThttp://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.p...ID=&fpart=1Really good discussion on SB completing.

[outsider13 0]

I agree with everything said here except the first sentence.

The point I was trying to make is I'm not playing this hand preflop to hit top pair like what happened on this hand. I'm never going to play this flop aggressively and the only way I'm getting to the turn is if it's for really cheap. I'm playing 86s for bigger flops than this.

[AimHigher 0]

QFThttp://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.p...ID=&fpart=1Really good discussion on SB completing.

This is for cash and while it's useful, it is based on the assumption that we are somewhere in the region of 100 BBs deep. I imagine if they'd discussed it in regards to SNGs they would've mentioned a lot of other factors beside the range which they'll complete with.