poker: skill or luck? dn, josh, paul, help?

[dapokerbum 0]

Okay. I don't think most people would call daytraders gamblers. I've used that example in the past and I've usually gotten the response "but that's different." I think to me, the problem with the word gambling is that it has a negative connotation. I don't like saying that the way I make my money is by gambling. I feel that it takes away the skill aspect. I'm sure there are loads of environments where gambling isn't viewed as something negative at all, and that the way you respond to the word will be very different to how I respond. With that said, when I flip a coin for $100 with a friend, that's gambling. When I bet on a football match "just to make me care." That's gambling. So it's not that I'm anti-gambling in any way. I just don't like mixing the two "versions", if you know what I mean?

Okay I agree with you there :-) ...the word gambling does have negative connotations. When I tell me fiance that I am off to play poker she just shrugs and says have fun gambling and I just laugh it off and say that I will be back with $100. Usually I am right but sometimes not and there to me lies the gamble. For the most part against my friends I will win but every once in a while they will get some crazy draw out and I lose. I understand what you mean but to me when there is a chance to lose you are in fact gambling. I don't believe it takes away from any skill because you can be a very skillful gambler if we are just caught in semantics then I concede as long as you agree that everytime you sit down at a poker table you are taking a chance to lose your money. Over time you WILL be a winner but at any given time you can come out eith less money 8)

[Macint0sh 0]

I don't believe it takes away from any skill because you can be a very skillful gambler if we are just caught in semantics then I concede as long as you agree that everytime you sit down at a poker table you are taking a chance to lose your money. Over time you WILL be a winner but at any given time you can come out eith less money 8)

Of course. If there were no losing sessions I I'd buy an island in the caribbean in a few years ;)My point just lies in the fact that there is a risk element in alot of areas most people don't refer to as gambling.And I can get very anal about semantics.(I'm not sure how much I really like that last sentence :wink: )

[TheIceman05 0]

Some people (the weird bad guy from Mario 2??) are totally misdefining luck. By definition, one cannot bend luck to one's will, or influence it in any way. The skill in poker is taking the information available and managing expectation. It's theoretically possible that somebody could play beautiful poker, and never get the money in when he's less than a 3-1 favorite. Maybe he gets sucked out on 1,000 times in a row. The chances are infintestimal, yes. But that would be unLUCKY. It wouldn't be unskillful, and there's no way to manage that expectation any better. Luck cannot be influenced. That's not up for debate. It's definitional. Also, poker might be gambling, but then so is everything. In my mind, gambling refers to a game in which you have no statistical edge (ie, blackjack, sports betting, flipping coins, etc). In poker, you're "betting" that your cards will hold up, which is a type of gamble, but not in the sense that the word is used to describe rolling dice with the cooks at work. You make a series of rational gambles, and in the long run you have an expectation of profit. You could call that gambling, but then so could you call the entire economic infrastructure of Earth.Cheers,Ice

[Rock Crawler 0]

Gamble....according to American Heritage DictionaryVERB: gam·bled , gam·bling , gam·bles VERB: intr. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. To play a game of chance for stakes. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke. VERB: tr. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission. NOUN: A bet, wager, or other gambling venture. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise. Looks like poker is gambling to me. Just like a lot of other things in life.

[TheIceman05 0]

Gamble....according to American Heritage DictionaryVERB: gam·bled , gam·bling , gam·bles VERB: intr. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. To play a game of chance for stakes. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke. VERB: tr. To put up as a stake in gambling; wager. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission. NOUN: A bet, wager, or other gambling venture. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise. Looks like poker is gambling to me. Just like a lot of other things in life.

Which definition would you say applies most specifically to poker? Probably the third: "To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or benefit." Could we use that same definition to describe flipping coins and getting even money for it? Or playing blackjack (ie, flipping coins and getting LESS THAN even money for it)? No. When we refer to games like blackjack, we use the second definition. "To play a game of chance for stakes." Genereally, "game of chance" means "game where chance is the biggest deciding factor." I'd argue that poker's not a game of chance. There are too many rational decisions involved. Like I said before, we need to be careful to understand exactly what we mean when we use the word "gamble."Ice

[bigcoled 1]

Shallow men believe in luck. Strong men believe in cause and effect. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson"The harder you work, the luckier you get." -McAlexanderI'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it. -Thomas Jefferson The golden opportunity you are seeking is in yourself. It is not in your environment; it is not in luck or chance, or the help of others; it is in yourself alone." -Orison Swett Marden The man who wins is the average man, Not built on any particular plan;Not blessed with any particular luck –Just steady and earnest and full of pluck.The man who wins is the man who works,Who neither labor nor trouble shirks;Who uses his hands, his head, his eyes-The man who wins is the man who tries. -Conrad Hilton, from autobiography "Be My Guest", 1957 Perhaps our supercilious disgust with existence is a cover for a secret disgust with ourselves; we have botched and bungled our lives, and we cast the blame upon the "environment" or the "world," which have no tongues to utter a defense. The mature man accepts the natural limitations of life; he does not expect Providence to be prejudiced in his favor; he does not ask for loaded dice to play the game of life. He knows, with Carlyle, that there is no sense in vilifying the sun because it will not light our cigars. And perhaps, if we are clever enough to help it, the sun will even do that; and this vast neutral cosmos may turn out to be a pleasant place enough if we bring a little sunshine of our own to help it out. In truth, the world is neither with us or against us; it is but raw material in our hands, and can be heaven or hell according to what we are. -Will Durant Everything in life is luck. ~Donald TrumpLuck never gives; it only lends. ~Swedish ProverbLuck: when your burst of energy doesn't run afoul of someone else's. ~Mignon McLaughlin, The Second Neurotic's Notebook, 1966Luck is what you have left over after you give 100 percent. ~Langston ColemanIt's hard to detect good luck - it looks so much like something you've earned. ~Frank A. ClarkI believe in luck: how else can you explain the success of those you dislike? ~Jean CocteauThe only thing that overcomes hard luck is hard work. ~Harry Golden

[TheIceman05 0]

Man, that Will Durant quote was intense. Holy crap!Ice

[Farnan 0]

So stock brokers are gamblers too, then?

Not the stock brokers (they're the dealers).The investors are gambling.The point is, most things in life is a gamble. Running across the street is a gamble. Talking to that cute blonde in a bar is a gamble. Buying a house is a gamble.We assess risk and make decisions that are based upon an uncertain outcome all the time. The fact that something is gambling shouldn't scare you away---so long as the expectation is favorable.If joe schmo goes out and starts real estate investing or day trading without knowing what he is doing---he might as well put his money down on a craps table. The same goes for poker. There is an element of luck. But with the use of skill, one can shift the usual negative expectation of ordinary casino gambling to a positive expectation and consistantly make a profit.

[dapokerbum 0]

The point is, most things in life is a gamble. Running across the street is a gamble. Talking to that cute blonde in a bar is a gamble. Buying a house is a gamble.  We assess risk and make decisions that are based upon an uncertain outcome all the time. The fact that something is gambling shouldn't scare you away---so long as the expectation is favorable.  If joe schmo goes out and starts real estate investing or day trading without knowing what he is doing---he might as well put his money down on a craps table. The same goes for poker. There is an element of luck. But with the use of skill, one can shift the usual negative expectation of ordinary casino gambling to a positive expectation and consistantly make a profit.

Well Said!!

[Dunce 0]

So stock brokers are gamblers too, then?Do you agree that poker is a sport?

Brokers? No. They're the Casino. They make money whether you win or lose. Poker a sport? No.The object of Poker is to fake people out. Deceive them into making mistakes that puts money in your pocket.No con game is a sport.The best starting hand in Hold'em is AA.Statistically, at best, and then only Heads-Up, it is no better than playing Russsian Roulette with a 5 shot revolver. On average, 1 time in 5, when you play those Aces, they're gonna ruin your day.Dunce

[akishore 0]

bigcoled, you forgot the best one!"i'm a lucky player; a powerful winning force surrounds me."- mike caro, mad genuis of pokeraseem

[AceyDeucy 0]

Any person can win a HAND of poker.Not just anyone can win a GAME of poker.There is an easy confusion of the short and long term here. Many people argue, correctly, that poker is gambling, courtesy of the traditional legal definition of gambling:Consideration, chance, prize. Chance is indisputably in every hand. THAT SAID, over a period of time money will inevitably flow from the good players to the bad, because the good players are repeatedly taking the best chances.Imagine, for instance, a casino that started PokerJack: an exciting new game. In PokerJack, you are dealt one card, and then bet on the merits of that card, then given another bet after the dealer shows the upcard, then one more after your second. Sure, you are playing a game of chance, but now a highly winnable one. If you can check on every 5 you get dealt, and open huge with every ace, suddenly you manipulate the game better than a card counter. Of course, casinos don't have this game because they will lose money. Remember Bob Stupak's "half a percent." It cuts both ways.Just because it is a gamble at the instant money moves, that doesn't mean that you are necessarily gambling, provided you have the bankroll to get a large sample size.