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Is There A God?


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O.k. You win. Enjoy it. You have 60 some odd years left to enjoy it, then eternity to wonder what the hell went wrong. "But, the carbon testing!!!" "Bwahahahahahahahahaahahhahaahahahahaha."
appealing to people's irrational fear is also typical cult methodology.
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You can pretend all you like that the Bible paints some sort of timeline when it comes to creation that is based of of years,minutes, hours, etc., but it doesn't say that so I don't do it?
you keep saying over and over in this forum you think the earth could be younger than the dating evidence indicates because it might be constructed more recently from older materials. just trying to help you out with how silly that is. that is all.
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I have just started browsing the area of the forum and it is interesting to me how many of you make matter of fact statements on subjects of faith, spiritualism, and/or the lack there of.

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No offense but both sides of the God/No God argument spew off lame one liners.
To be fair, crow and lois have pretty much said everything about 42 times each, I am only on 21. So short hand lame one liners are more like an inside joke in OT than debating laziness.TAKE MY WIFE...
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I have just started browsing the area of the forum and it is interesting to me how many of you make matter of fact statements on subjects of faith, spiritualism, and/or the lack there of.
Is that a fact?/lame one liners
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Sorry but we are not saying the same thing. To clarify for peeps that haven't heard this before.Guy walks through woods and finds watch. It is a natural assumption to assume it was created than coming together randomly through evolution. This argument is used often by creationist to say that since the earth is complex it is a natural assumption to assume it was created.
I am with you up to here.
I say that they are ignoring Natural Selection when assuming the earth was created.
But that is only true if you believe NS answers all the questions. You do, I don't. If NS is not true, then your whole argument falls apart.
I am also saying the watchmaker is a great argument for there not being a God. I'm using the Ultimate Watchmaker argument. If complexity means something was created and so on...
But the alternative to this thinking says that the more complex, the less likely there is anything but random chance/Natural Selection.You believe in a Big Bang, a starting point that began the whole thing. But what started that? What was the intelligence level that not only invented matter, but gave laws and order to the matter and energy it created. Why did it happen? Where are my keys?In other words:When our weary world was youngThe struggle of the ancients first beganThe gods of love and reasonSought alone to rule the fate of manThey battled through the agesBut still neither force would yieldThe people were dividedEvery soul a battlefield
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Is it a sin for me to believe that both creationism to a certain extent and natural selection can go hand in hand?For someone like me who for the most part believes in God, I can make the statement that I believe that the Big Bang was the start of our universe and the Big Bang was created by God. I can also say while having a belief in God that Natural Selection can and does occur. I do not believe that Adam and Eve existed and were the first humans. I have no issues with people who do, but I do not. I am sorry but working as an archeologist at one point in my life, I have seen things and worked with things I know to be real and be older that what some of you are stating.

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appealing to people's irrational fear is also typical cult methodology.
It's only irrational if there is no judgement at the end of life.you're betting your whole bankroll on this
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Is it a sin for me to believe that both creationism to a certain extent and natural selection can go hand in hand?For someone like me who for the most part believes in God, I can make the statement that I believe that the Big Bang was the start of our universe and the Big Bang was created by God. I can also say while having a belief in God that Natural Selection can and does occur. I do not believe that Adam and Eve existed and were the first humans. I have no issues with people who do, but I do not. I am sorry but working as an archeologist at one point in my life, I have seen things and worked with things I know to be real and be older that what some of you are stating.
I can go along with this to a certain extent. I think this is very logical thinking.
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Is it a sin for me to believe that both creationism to a certain extent and natural selection can go hand in hand?For someone like me who for the most part believes in God, I can make the statement that I believe that the Big Bang was the start of our universe and the Big Bang was created by God. I can also say while having a belief in God that Natural Selection can and does occur. I do not believe that Adam and Eve existed and were the first humans. I have no issues with people who do, but I do not. I am sorry but working as an archeologist at one point in my life, I have seen things and worked with things I know to be real and be older that what some of you are stating.
I have no doubt there will be many many things I am wrong about.Believing Christ died for your sins and accepting His forgiveness is the single requirement the Bible places on you, the rest is just stuff.So yes I think a person can believe the entire OT is an allegory, the earth is 4 billion years old and the church today is mostly dumb, and still have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ.I would bet more people in the western church lean this way than my way if push comes to shove.There are 'reasons' why this is slightly intellectually dishonest, but there are no tests in heaven. The Thief on the cross just asked Jesus to remember him when He got to heaven, and he got the big prize. No works, no agreeing with church doctrine, just asked Christ.
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Believing Christ died for your sins and accepting His forgiveness is the single requirement the Bible places on you, the rest is just stuff.
Also you have to give all your money away to the poor. Those are really the only two things that Christ wanted, and he repeated them both over and over.
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Also you have to give all your money away to the poor. Those are really the only two things that Christ wanted, and he repeated them both over and over.
dude-wait-what.jpgIt's a pretty well documented fact that the thief on the cross had a large portfolio with diversification in seige weapons, and with the future Roman Jewish war on the hoizon you know that made him a pretty penny.and yet he was not asked to give any of it before he died.
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I am with you up to here.But that is only true if you believe NS answers all the questions. You do, I don't. If NS is not true, then your whole argument falls apart.But the alternative to this thinking says that the more complex, the less likely there is anything but random chance/Natural Selection.Again I don't get what you're saying so I assume you agree that complexity isn't an argument for God and that was your best shot other than blind faith.You believe in a Big Bang, a starting point that began the whole thing. But what started that? What was the intelligence level that not only invented matter, but gave laws and order to the matter and energy it created. Why did it happen? Where are my keys?In other words:When our weary world was youngThe struggle of the ancients first beganThe gods of love and reasonSought alone to rule the fate of manThey battled through the agesBut still neither force would yieldThe people were dividedEvery soul a battlefield
I don't have to explain why the universe is the way it is, it just is, that we know. I don't really care what came before the Big Bang since it most likely doesn't matter.It was nice of you to quote Peart a devout athiest and Dawkins geek, thanks!
Is it a sin for me to believe that both creationism to a certain extent and natural selection can go hand in hand?For someone like me who for the most part believes in God, I can make the statement that I believe that the Big Bang was the start of our universe and the Big Bang was created by God. I can also say while having a belief in God that Natural Selection can and does occur. I do not believe that Adam and Eve existed and were the first humans. I have no issues with people who do, but I do not. I am sorry but working as an archeologist at one point in my life, I have seen things and worked with things I know to be real and be older that what some of you are stating.
I suppose that if you want to believe and ultimate creator created the Big Bang and set this all in motion that's fine. There's no evidence of it though. Do you think he just did it and is sitting back watching or does he meddle into our affairs?
It's only irrational if there is no judgement at the end of life.you're betting your whole bankroll on this
Again with the death threats to get people behind you, nice.Let's talk about your heaven though. It is described as a perfect place of eternal happiness, right? Would that mean you couldn't strive for success? Achieve things? I guess you can't learn anything in heaven either since it would imply that it wasn't perfect. In fact if you could learn anything someone else might learn more than you and be smarter and more perfect and that's not what God promised.Are you like a rock in a constant state of bliss?All the things that make life on this earth "happy" wouldn't be possible in heaven so why would I want to go there?
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Something else from PeartFreewillThere are those who think that life has nothing left to chanceA host of holy horrors to direct our aimless danceA planet of play thingsWe dance on the stringsOf powers we cannot perceive'The stars aren't alignedOr the gods are malign...'Blame is better to give than receiveYou can choose a ready guide in some celestial voiceIf you choose not to decide, you still have made a choiceYou can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can killI will choose a path that's clearI will choose freewillThere are those who thinkThat they were dealt a losing handThe cards were stacked against themThey weren't born in LotuslandAll preordainedA prisoner in chainsA victim of venomous fateKicked in the faceYou can't pray for a placeIn heaven's unearthly estateEach of usA cell of awarenessImperfect and incompleteGenetic blendsWith uncertain endsOn a fortune hunt that's far too fleet

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I don't have to explain why the universe is the way it is, it just is, that we know. I don't really care what came before the Big Bang since it most likely doesn't matter.
And I don't care if God has a creator, because it most likely doesn't matter.
It was nice of you to quote Peart a devout athiest and Dawkins geek, thanks!
Even a broke clock is right twice a day.And he is the single greatest drummer ever.
Let's talk about your heaven though. It is described as a perfect place of eternal happiness, right? Would that mean you couldn't strive for success? Achieve things? I guess you can't learn anything in heaven either since it would imply that it wasn't perfect. In fact if you could learn anything someone else might learn more than you and be smarter and more perfect and that's not what God promised.Are you like a rock in a constant state of bliss?All the things that make life on this earth "happy" wouldn't be possible in heaven so why would I want to go there?
1Cor 2:9" Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him"If man made heaven, it would not be able to hold our attention for eternity. If the Creator wanted to make the perfect place, why would you think you He is unable too?
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And I don't care if God has a creator, because it most likely doesn't matter.Even a broke clock is right twice a day.And he is the single greatest drummer ever.1Cor 2:9" Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him"If man made heaven, it would not be able to hold our attention for eternity. If the Creator wanted to make the perfect place, why would you think you He is unable too?
You're right it doesn't matter if God has a creator since there is no God, logically of course.I should have guessed you'd pull a bible quote out about the mystical place called heaven instead of logically responding to my point that the whole idea is pretty stupid.At least we agree on Peart (finally something!)Hemisphere's was based off of an old English poem called "The Hedgerow" which explored peoples inner battle with logic and desire. Neil puked when he saw the cover though, it was nothing like what he wanted. You should listen to the new album though, Snakes and Arrows has alot of Dawkins influence in it. "The snakes and arrows a child is heir to is enough to leave a thousand cuts"
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Even a broke clock is right twice a day.
yes, about being guided by the mind being as important as being guided by the heart.the real problem with what you were debating is that for whatever reason you refuse to acknowledge that "random chance" and "god did it" are not the only two expanations for complexity. the third possibilitiy is that the complexity of the universe arises through NON-random naturalistic (god-free) processes, mimicking what we humans see as design by intelligence, even though it's not. this third possibility is what the empirical evidence indicates has been going on.
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I suppose that if you want to believe and ultimate creator created the Big Bang and set this all in motion that's fine. There's no evidence of it though. Do you think he just did it and is sitting back watching or does he meddle into our affairs?Again with the death threats to get people behind you, nice.
I don't believe he is a meddler. I think what happens happens. I don't think he answers prayers, and I do not believe in miracles. And maybe I don't even believe in "God" but I do believe there is a higher power. I don't think science can prove something came from nothing. Maybe it can, but I don't think so. I think that there are things that are unexplainable and that a higher power has something to do with it. Not like, wow the Pats were unstoppable and the Giants won the Super Bowl, God must be a NYG fan, but more akin to there was nothing and then there was something, that in my opinion (and trust me, it is an opinion, I do not try and state it as a fact)a higher power had something to do with that. I think the reason I believe in "God" is because it was something that was instilled in me. I went to church for a bit when I was under 10 yrs old but was never forced. My mom believes, but not enough to go to church and worship so I guess that is where I get my basic belief system from. And that is all it really is, a belief. I can't prove what I believe, and sorry, I know it pisses people off, but people who do believe cannot prove it as well. But if someone wants to believe, then believe. I know people who "found" religion and straightened up their lives and are very happy. That is great, if religion and church and a belief in God gave you that then why should I condemn them for it? For me though, it doesn't make me happy. It bores me, it frustrates me, it confuses me, and I just can't buy into it and I have tried. When I left for college I tried church again and I just couldn't get into it. I am not versed in the Bible and never claim to be, hence why I ask all the questions about OT and NT. I like this forum because I get insight on both sides. That is how people shape their beliefs and opinions, by listening to other people's beliefs and opinions. And yes, I think some beliefs and opinions are way out in left field but who the hell am I to tell them their beliefs are wrong? I have been told that my lack of worship and my skewed beliefs will leave my soul abandoned by God at death. I really do not care. As Randy stated I think, I don't need streets of gold. I don't need to sit and speak with God, I don't need to know all the answers. If it is black and that is it, then so be it. I care about now. I care about being a good husband, a good father, a good friend. I care about enjoying my life the way I want to enjoy it. I live for me, my family and friends, and no one else. I do not live for God. And to be clear, I do not ask for anything from God. As I said earlier I do not believe in prayer. My head is up and my eyes open during grace at my mother-in-laws. I do not pray when I attend religious weddings or funerals. But I also do not object or disrespect it when there, I keep to myself and let those around do what they feel is necessary for themselves. We also did not have a religious wedding and God was not mentioned once in our service. (some people think they can get me with that so I thought I would get it out now. lol)Sorry, rambling, nevermind me. Carry on with the circular argument.
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I don't think science can prove something came from nothing.
quantum mechanics already has in a sense.that is not to imply that anyone in the scientific community actually thinks the big bang singularity (if there even was one) came from absolutely "nothing". there are multiple feasable theories about what existed "before" the big bang that science is currently exploring.
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I don't believe he is a meddler. I think what happens happens. I don't think he answers prayers, and I do not believe in miracles. And maybe I don't even believe in "God" but I do believe there is a higher power. I don't think science can prove something came from nothing. Maybe it can, but I don't think so. I think that there are things that are unexplainable and that a higher power has something to do with it. Not like, wow the Pats were unstoppable and the Giants won the Super Bowl, God must be a NYG fan, but more akin to there was nothing and then there was something, that in my opinion (and trust me, it is an opinion, I do not try and state it as a fact)a higher power had something to do with that. I think the reason I believe in "God" is because it was something that was instilled in me. I went to church for a bit when I was under 10 yrs old but was never forced. My mom believes, but not enough to go to church and worship so I guess that is where I get my basic belief system from. And that is all it really is, a belief. I can't prove what I believe, and sorry, I know it pisses people off, but people who do believe cannot prove it as well. But if someone wants to believe, then believe. I know people who "found" religion and straightened up their lives and are very happy. That is great, if religion and church and a belief in God gave you that then why should I condemn them for it? For me though, it doesn't make me happy. It bores me, it frustrates me, it confuses me, and I just can't buy into it and I have tried. When I left for college I tried church again and I just couldn't get into it. I am not versed in the Bible and never claim to be, hence why I ask all the questions about OT and NT. I like this forum because I get insight on both sides. That is how people shape their beliefs and opinions, by listening to other people's beliefs and opinions. And yes, I think some beliefs and opinions are way out in left field but who the hell am I to tell them their beliefs are wrong? I have been told that my lack of worship and my skewed beliefs will leave my soul abandoned by God at death. I really do not care. As Randy stated I think, I don't need streets of gold. I don't need to sit and speak with God, I don't need to know all the answers. If it is black and that is it, then so be it. I care about now. I care about being a good husband, a good father, a good friend. I care about enjoying my life the way I want to enjoy it. I live for me, my family and friends, and no one else. I do not live for God. And to be clear, I do not ask for anything from God. As I said earlier I do not believe in prayer. My head is up and my eyes open during grace at my mother-in-laws. I do not pray when I attend religious weddings or funerals. But I also do not object or disrespect it when there, I keep to myself and let those around do what they feel is necessary for themselves. We also did not have a religious wedding and God was not mentioned once in our service. (some people think they can get me with that so I thought I would get it out now. lol)Sorry, rambling, nevermind me. Carry on with the circular argument.
Awesome post. There really isn't anything different between you, me and most of humanity. Very very few have ever read the bible other than a children's version and if they did wouldn't have a clue what the just read. It's that boring, complicated and wishy washy laden with a brazillion begats. Most people I know that are religous and attend and believe in church do so because of the culture they were raised in like you mentioned. They probably have never thought of looking at whether it is true or not since it provides a sense of community etc.Most people that don't attend service or are devout to a particular religon are mostly like you, good people that find comfort in believing and don't buy into all the fundamentalist nonsense. What you wrote is also the same premise as in the Space Odyssey where earth is contacted by "someone" and told to leave Europus (the planet) alone to develop (evolve) as they had let earth. I have no problem with anyone who thinks this and support their right to do so. (A non meddling creator of sorts)I used to believe that if there was a higher power it was more likely something along them lines. Over the course of time though I just find so many things wrong with religon and they're political power that it friggin' scares me and I think it's time to finally speak up. Dawkins and so many others have finally broken the taboo and are saying what most suspected all along. I think athiests need to do this to stem the tide of all the cruelty and harm religon does. I'm not talking day cares or pot luck dinners so please BG don't jump on me. You only need to look at the problems in the middle east, Africa, Ireland etc..
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