why the poker boom is bad for society

[....Ian.... 0]

i think it may be bad for society, but honestly i'm tto greedy to do anything about it. i want degenerate gamblers with little skill to keep play. it sounds harsh i know but i aint here to make friends...i'm here to put the kids in catholic school (flame away on catholic priests)side note: when i was younger i ran up alot of credit card debt gambling (casino non poker). and its because of poker that i am about to pay of my debt in full. kinda ironic i thought

[Nico_Ban 0]

So I have a question for all of those who say poker is gambling.Is golf gambling? people buyin to tournaments and then play (some with more skill than others) at a CHANCE to win money.Is football gambling? Teams put millions of dollars into players and then hope to get to the super bowl for a CHANCE at winning money.Is bowling gambling? See golf statements above.Is soccer gambling? My team pays to play in tournaments all the time that has an end result of cash.Is trivia gambling? We have buyin trivia tournaments at some of our bars and the prize is money.Please don't tell me these are different and that luck is the factor. In golf a ball can bounce off a tree and onto the green, in football a juggled ball or a fumble can make a difference, in bowling slipping and falling is obviously lucky for the other guy, in soccer a goal is scored after accidently ricocheting off someones face and in trivia, a wild guess may be the difference between winning and losing.

Yes all of the above, except for football, are gambling because of the simple fact that the exchange of money is riding on the outcome of the events. In football they are playing for a trophy. Its not the owner of the best team gets $10 million from the other owners. It doesnt matter if your playing tiddly winks. If people put up money in advance with the chance of winning or losing that money they are gambling. So if your soccer team is the best in the tourney, and every one else puts up equal money to win equal money, it is just a +EV gamble for you.

[justblaze 0]

No that is simply not true, an underdog team winning a football team happens because the team still has a lot of skill. but less skill than the favourite. in a game of pure skill, with no luck involved, the more skilled team or player should win every time. A High school football team will NEVER beat an NFL team, ever.any oddsmaker would take this bet against you. To make this statement with absolute certainty is naive. What if there is one particularily terrible NFL, and one extraordinary high school team. Could you not concieve of this occuring? Things like weather, affect both teams. but not always equally. So it is with poker. the turn of a card affects all players, but often differently. The green bay packers do exceptionally well in cold weather, but many teams are hindered by it. but to say poker is not gambling is just wrong.depends on the definition of gambling. find me one which you can reconcile with poker, and i will show you how based on that definition every breath you take is a gamble. but fans pay to watch you play, then maybe you could not consider it gambling.So the PPT isnt gambling? But when you put your own money up with the possibility of losing it in a game, it is gambling, plain and simplethis is so far off from the definition of gambling, its funny.

[justblaze 0]

im going to do you all a favour: gam·ble ( P ) (gmbl)v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles v. intr.To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. To play a game of chance for stakes. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke. v. tr.To put up as a stake in gambling; wager. To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission. n. A bet, wager, or other gambling venture. An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

[bobbywithani 0]

im going to do you all a favour:  gam·ble   ( P ) (gmbl)v. gam·bled, gam·bling, gam·bles  v. intr.To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. To play a game of chance for stakes.  To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.  To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.  v. tr.To put up as a stake in gambling; wager.  To expose to hazard; risk: gambled their lives in a dangerous rescue mission.  n.  A bet, wager, or other gambling venture.  An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome; a risk: I took a gamble that stock prices would rise.

That's what I said, or what I was trying to say.

[Dunce 0]

Individual sports like golf and bowling ARE games of skill.If you do the same things in the same way every time you get the same outcome every time. Manipulate your body and a golf club in the same way and at the same speed every time and the ball will fly the same distance and direction every time. The player directly controls his own outcomes.Skill is the ability to produce such repeating results. Poker is an activity where you can do the same things in the same way every time and get a different outcome every time. Gambling is an activity that involves the attempt to forecast results when the outcome is uncertain.In fact, one of the first precepts of Poker is to ignore your results. Instead, concentrate on making good decisions and after you have played "enough" hands perfectly, the laws of probability are supposed to produce a positive outcome, provided all bets were of equal value.One problem is that not all bets are of equal value. Another problem is that even if y0u make perfect decisions, you still don't control the outcome of any hand. The other player may Call when he should Fold and the random distribution of the deck may reward his mistake rather than your perfect play.The object of golf is to move a specific ball a certain distance and have it arrive at a specified location in the fewest number of strokes.The object of Poker is to take the greatest amount of the other guy's money in the least time.Golf is a skill. Poker is a gamble.

[Rob-L 0]

I think there are many people out there, especially young people, who are too influenced by what they see on TV. We've seen this several times before poker started being aired on TV. For example, I can remember years ago a story about children lighting a fire and burning down their house because they saw "Beavis & Butthead" play with fire on TV. There was the story of the teen-aged boy who killed a young girl while he was putting moves on her that he had seen while watching "pro" wrestling.How many kids have been hurt doing "Jackass" type stunts? How many people starve themselves to be thin like the actors and actresses on TV? How many people have to have an iPod or a PSP because they see so many people on TV with one?I don't think poker is a problem for society, I think watching too much TV and believing what you see on TV is a problem for society. (Notice, I didn't say TV itself is the problem). People need to be taught, or learn for themselves that the things they see, even the so called Reality TV shows, are MANUFACTURED for entertainment, and they should not be overly influenced or impressed by what they see there.Also, casinos tend to be in "poor neighborhoods" because those are the neighborhoods that need the additional revenue. Atlantic City is a prime example. Years ago, before air travel was affordable and abundant, AC was a big vacation area for those in the north-east part of the country. After it became more affordable and easier to get to places like Florida for example, AC dried up as a tourist spot. Thus, to get some tourist money back, the introduced gambling.Same with the riverboats. I grew up near Joliet, Illinois. Back in the day there were many factories in town and shipping on the river. Those factories closed up, and the town was quickly deteriorating. The local economy was devastated. Thus, gambling was introduced. This is why most casinos appear to be in poor neighborhoods. They didn't start out in good neighborhoods, the town got addicted to gambling and then it turned bad, like you infer.Peace, bro.

[Guest]

A High school football team will NEVER beat an NFL team, ever.any oddsmaker would take this bet against you. To make this statement with absolute certainty is naive. What if there is one particularily terrible NFL, and one extraordinary high school team. Could you not concieve of this occuring?  

There is absolutely zero chance of any High School team beating a NFL team ever. And no odds maker would take the bet.

[shedrackle 0]

Let me start off by saying that I have been more of a voyer to this forum than posting my thoughts and replies. However, today's topic has prompted me to post.The statements made on fullcowardpoker.com have brought forward a topic I would like to mention. Each of the statements listed are in direct violation to philosophical logic. Examples of this:(quoted)"With poker being found at almost anytime of day on television, more and more people are playing the game. Who are these new players? Young people like me, people who do not understand the importance of money, and are risking it because it looked cool to do on TV."Violation: (Complex Question) A complex question is a question that implicitly assumes something to be true by its construction. Complex questions are a well established and time-honored practice in debate, although they are rarely so bald-faced as the example just given. Complex questions usually appear in cross-examination or points of information when the questioner wants the questionee to inadvertently admit something that she might not admit if asked directly. This is a sneaky tactic, but debate is sometimes a sneaky business. You wouldn't want to put a question like that in your master's thesis, but it might work in a debate. But be careful -- if you try to pull a fast one on someone who is alert enough to catch you, you'll look stupid.Instead of mentioning how poker (gambling) is bad for society, maybe the writer should reaccess themselves. (quoted)I love poker. When I'm at a poker table, I must feel the way John Wayne felt in a western movie. I'm comfortable, confident, and feel like I can't lose - although lately I usually do.Maybe the title of your thread should be "Why the poker boom is bad for ME"

[justblaze 0]

A High school football team will NEVER beat an NFL team, ever.any oddsmaker would take this bet against you. To make this statement with absolute certainty is naive. What if there is one particularily terrible NFL, and one extraordinary high school team. Could you not concieve of this occuring?

There is absolutely zero chance of any High School team beating a NFL team ever. And no odds maker would take the bet.

really? what if the whole NFL team catches the flu on game day, and all the high school kids are prodigies expected to go 1st round in the next years draft? This is impossible? it could not happen, ever? think about what you are saying. What if the high school team was from alaska, acclimated to playing in subzero temperatures, while the entire NFL team was used to tropical weather, and the game was held in alaska? What if the entire NFL teams first stringers were found to be using drugs, and were suspended on gameday, forcing the NFL team to use bench players? What if, 20 years from now, the NFL is degraded to the point where the talent and skill levels are comparable to high school teams? THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. To make this statement with absolute certainty, you need to be sure there is no conceivable situation in which a high school football team could beat an NFL football team, for the rest of time. You could be 99.9% sure, but never 100%.

[troy5168 0]

well written but I have a confession to make. I'm a compulsive gambler. Now mind you, there is a difference between gambling and playing poker. Yes, there is still the element of luck however it is limited in poker. In poker I can control myself and to some degree the outcome. I would also like to point out that it's not just gambling, I'm compulsive about alot of things and you will find that most compulsive gamblers are. If there wasn't poker I'd be shooting dice, betting the ponies, handicapping sports(all of these I still do of course :-) ) I don't believe poker causes the problem or even really feeds it. The problem is already there. I used to drink compulsively, however I don't believe I'm an alcoholic because nowadays I can have 1 and stop, or 10, go days, weeks or months. But when I decided I wasn't going to drink myself to death I just moved on to something else I could do compulsively. The alcohol wasn't the problem, the personality disorder was, the poker is not the problem and neither is the gambling. They just happen to be what is feeding the need. Hope this made sense to everyone.

[dharris 0]

Poker is similar to sports like football in the sense that on any given day the underdog, or less skilled team or player can win. However, in the course of the entire season, all other things being equal, the skill will rise to the top. My point is that with a large enough sample size, anything that is not gambling (such as poker), the skill will come out on top. Gambling plays a part in poker, but I don't think that means that poker is gambling. I guess each hand or session in isolation could be seen as a gamble. If you are a good enough player though, you will overcome the swings with solid play (and BR management) that wins out most of the time.It is kind of like the house edge in blackjack -- there can be wide swings either way, but over time the Casino achieves a predictable, odds-based edge due to high volume.Devo

[Guest]

your blog made me think of the warnings they put before WWE matches. they warn everyone that these are highly trained athletes and those watching are not under any circumstances to repeat what they see on tv. but seriously though, does the warning actually stop anyone? i think the backyard wrestling dvd's strewn about my room are enough proof that the warnings do little.BUT, it probably would be of some value for television to stop peddling poker like it's something that "everyone can do" and that "anyone" has a shot at turning $20 on pokerstars into millions a la Chris Moneymaker. the irony is that poker is portrayed as being glamorous on television while any succesful pro will say it's the hardest lifestyle ever and would not recommend it to their worst enemy.as for as jayson saying poker is not gambling... well then, is blackjack not gambling either? of course it's gambling. but las vegas and all its billions of dollars will tell you that playing a game based solely on random chance where the odds are in your favor even by a margin of 1-2% translates into piles, and piles and piles of money. that same theory applies to poker, or any other events left solely to chance. (in your defense though, the skill factor of a good NL player vs. a bad one can skew the odds in their favor a ridiculous amount, but the events are still random so it's still called gambling)peace out.xTBONEx

[gcirons 0]

First, Poker is not gambling. If it was the Casino's would have a house player at every table instead of raking or charging seat time (Casinos always love negative expected value games).Second, It is natural that most poker players bleed money when first starting out. The experienced players live off that money. If the novice catches on they will stop giving away money and start earning. If a player does not figure out what they are doing wrong and continues to loose money they will eaither quit or get into an adictive gambling pattern. However, one cannot concern them selves with other peoples gambling problems. Everyone is in charge of themselves. Breweries don't temper there production because some people have drinking problems.

[bobbywithani 0]

If poker is not gambling, then why do you bet. Even Skalansy says Poker is gambling.

[Socrates 0]

I think this has gotten way out of control.Everything is a gamble according to most of you, driving your car is a gamble, crossing the street is a gamble, etc.... with each and any activity, you purposely choose to wager your health and life each everyday you decide to do something. You can not predict a certain outcome for any event you participate in. You may be the best driver in the world, but that unpredictable time when a drunk runs a red light, guess what, you just lost the wager. I think the point of this whole thread was suppose to be that poker is a game in which you can change the outcome dramatically based on your skill level. Dice, Blackjack, Craps, Roulette, they all have an unbeatable percentage that you will definately lose over time, guaranteed. Poker does not have that facet, you can be a purely profitable poker player over the course of tens of years with never having been down due to skill level, this is highly unlikely in any of the other casino games.

[bobbywithani 0]

no when you wager MONEY it is a gamble. Plain and simple, the definition you posted confirmed that. Wagering money on an uncertain outcome. So what part of poker is not wagering money on an uncertain outcome? Arguing that over a long enough sample, the skill makes you win, still doesn't change the fact that it is a gambling game. That is Skalanskys exact phrase for it, a gambling game. The car analogy is dumb because I'm not getting in my car hoping to win some money.I mean, I encourage learning the skills and playing poker as opposed to say, playing the lotto. I mean I've played various forms of poker for money since I was about 15, and I've had times where I lost a lot of money, and other times when I won a lot. Evenually I began to try to use skill in my play to win more. In the end skill should prevail, but to think of it as not gambling is just asking for trouble because you can start to think,"well I'm good enough so I can't lose". It's dangerous thinking, and I know most people on this forum don't think this way, but instilling the belief that poker is not gambling is just silly. There are other types of Professional Gamblers besides poker players, who have the skill to put their odds slightly over the house in games like Blackjack, but they are still professional gamblers.

[grittybones 0]

For some reason, this topic made me register just to reply, so here it is.The reason many in this discussion have said poker is not gambling has to do with the fact that it involves, to a great degree, skill. More skilled players win more often than non-skilled players. This is true.However, luck is still involved, and that means there's a gamble on every hand in poker. Let's say you're an 80-percent favorite after the flop. When you place a bet — unless you're slowplaying your pocket pair, which is a gamble in and of itself — you place it based on the fact that four times out of five, you will have that bet pay off. But, as we all know, being a favorite doesn't make you a mortal lock. You're still gambling that the poker gods, the dealer who's been censored (rhymes with "listing") you all night or your pitch-black karma will not interfere and let your leading hand win. And when you suffer a bad beat, you've lost that gamble.Gambling is not restricted to a 50-50 proposition. Any time the outcome is unknown (even if one can be predicted more often than not) your placing money on that outcome means you're gambling. So, yes, poker is gambling.And, in closing, gambling and sex are the only two things I'll never give up, with smoking still on the bubble.-- the new guy

[shedrackle 0]

I just had to revive to see if we get more "luck" stories

[SiliconSlim 0]

If poker is not gambling, then why do you bet.  Even Skalansy says Poker is gambling.

Anyone that says poker isn't gambling has been either:A: Seriously misinterpreting what they read in books, orB: Listening to the bluster of some lucky (even good!) players that have cashed out big wins recently.In no way, shape, or form can betting money on an uncertain outcome be considered gambling. The only time poker isn't gambling is when you have the nuts on the river.

[edingerlaw 0]

Theory versus reality. Your analogy regarding the possibility of a high school team having a .1% chance of beating a NFL team is absurd. THERE IS ZERO CHANCE. Unlike the NBA, high school football players are not physically mature enough to play in the NFL. On the greatest college teams like Miami and Ohio State, in a great year, perhaps 6 to 10 players make the NFL. On the greatest high school teams in history, perhaps 3 to4 players, in 6 YEARS made the NFL. No professional oddsmaker would ever make a line on the game.

[Guest]

Is poker gambling, yes. Is it a game of skill, yes. In the long run, luck has nothing to do with how successful a player is. Note eventually may not be able to happen within a single lifetime which can make the point moot. If Moneymaker went back to playing small stakes online and was losing, it would take him a LONG time to lose his 2.5million.Some people like to use this as a definition of gambling:Risking money on an uncertain outcome.If you want to use this, fine. If you do though, you have to admit this makes many other "accepted" things in our society gambling. Any type of investing is a gamble. There is nothing certain in the stock market, you may win, you may lose, but you are risking money on an uncertain outcome so you are gambling. Look at how much most people lost in the stock market in the late 90's and they'll understand the "gamble" involved. Anyone starting a business is also gambling. They are risking money hoping their business will succeed and they will be able to make more money from it. This is a gamble.Despite these being gambles, I don't see anyone wanting to outlaw investing money in the stock market. In fact it's highly encouraged for retirement purposes. Somehow this gambling is ok, but other forms are not. This country was built on entrepreneurs, and trying to start your own business is lauded and highly thought of. Why is this gambling different?Personally, I treat my poker playing as a business. I put in an initial investment, I'm working hard to make the best decisions and seeing what will come of it. So far, my investment is paying off. Currently, I'm almost finished with a Masters in Mathematics and I can "fall back" on that if necessary. I love playing poker because it IS a game of skill, it's a battle of wits and I like beating other people. It gives a great chance to never stop learning and I love studying and thinking about the game.As to the original poster and kids getting involved. This has very little to do with poker itself. This is a general problem with our society as a whole. Look at skateboarding, rollerblading and other fads that have peaked and are now declining. Kids like to do the "hot" thing, and feel that because it is popular they want and have to do it.You are also ignoring many of the lessons that can be taught through poker. Not everything related to poker and kids is bad. It is great for developing math skills for calcuting odds, outs, who's a favorite, etc. It is great at fostering logical deduction when trying to determine what the opponent is holding. It encourages proper money management to prevent going broke when you hit a bad run of cards.As for the addiction issues. Gambling issues are a small problem compared to other addictions. That doesn't mean it should be ignored, but it bothers me how out of proportion it is as compared to drinking problems. For the people that have a gambling problem, it rarely ONLY a gambling problem. If they weren't gambling, they would be drinking or doing drugs, or other addictive behaviors. The problem is their addictive personality, NOT the fact their current focus happens to be gambling. One of the above posters (troy I believe) said much the same thing.To Jayson's question of "Is poker bad?" I say no. Even if it is, I don't see how it can be any worse than other "vices" like drinking excessively, drugs, etc. Like most things, if you don't let it get out of control, and you're not hurting other people with it I don't see much problem with it.Thus spoke Zarathustra

[Matt Miner 0]

poker is not gambling, perhaps it is for you as you stated lately you've been losing... But poker is not gambling, how do you explain people making a living on the game?  Easy, its a Skill Game.

that's ridiculous. poker is absolutely, positively gambling. people who play poker for a living are professional GAMBLERS, just like people who handicap pro sports for a living or people who play blackjack for a living. if you think poker isn't gambling you probably don't understand the game as well as you should. anyone can have a losing day, a losing week or even a losing month.

[Guest]

poker is not gambling, perhaps it is for you as you stated lately you've been losing... But poker is not gambling, how do you explain people making a living on the game?  Easy, its a Skill Game.

that's ridiculous. poker is absolutely, positively gambling. people who play poker for a living are professional GAMBLERS, just like people who handicap pro sports for a living or people who play blackjack for a living. if you think poker isn't gambling you probably don't understand the game as well as you should. anyone can have a losing day, a losing week or even a losing month.

This is true, it's just eventually, skill trumps luck. I think that was the point Jayson was trying to make. Much like with investing, if you don't have the skill, you are probably going to lose all your money.Zara

[bobbywithani 0]

Yes but many gambling games that are beatable involve skill. A pool hustler is still gambling on each game. If you don't think poker is gambling, you need to change the definition of gambling, or play for fake money.