Atheist Soldier Sues Army For 'unconstitutional' Discrimination

[El Guapo 8]

But only because of the ignorance of the people around him. I just think it's important to make that distinction.

Like I said before I totally agree. But being a realist as to what the army is and what goes on, standing out (unless it is being exceptional at your training) is not looked highly upon in any area. There are also reasons for this, the people you go into battle with have to trust you and vice versa. You don't have to necessarily believe in all the same things, but you also cannot completely dismiss it either, especially something like this that is such a volatile subject to begin with.I want to here more about what Randy alluded to.

[crowTrobot 2]

And if we want to keep them happy we'll have to deal with a few atheists that are too stubborn to bow their heads once in a while out of respect to the people who take strength from prayer.

more assumptions. there was nothing in the article that implied he wasn't respecting what others were doing. the only example was him being discrimiated against because he wouldn't actively pray in a group himself. huge difference. yeah if he's being an a-hole about it he deserves what he gets, but you don't know that's the case.

[CaneBrain 95]

The point is that we don't know if the conversation was:Christian: Aren't you going to pray?Atheist: No, I don't believe in God. You go ahead, I'll hang back.

to quote Mike Birbiglia: "what I should have said was nothing". A good leader would have said nothing.....that is why I agree with BigD....the army has every right to take decisions like this into account when determining if he would command the respect of troops below him.otherwise, I agree with you. It is one thing to deny him a promotion because you think his stance on not praying is untimely and unproductive. it is another for him to be constantly harassed about it. how can we spread freedom properly if our own troops cant respect the relgious freedom of their fellow comrades?

[El Guapo 8]

http://ocf.gospelcom.net/Imagine this in Farsi.Sargeants, captains and even some generals were aware and more or less sicked the right wing nutbags on him.What kind of morality does Christianity have that they want to kill non-Christians?He didn't want to go attend there propaganda meetings and got slammed.

Well this is just downright unacceptable. I will make an assumption that he was stationed with some uber-religious soldiers and they took things to a level that is obviously completely wrong. I have had a few buddies go into and are still in the reserves and they were not subject to anything like this.I would bet, do to his past Christianity, that some of these soldiers felt it was their mission to "save" him.

[Randy Reed 0]

Basically there are 2 very large Christian organizations that are sweeping the army. If you don't join and donate part of your pay you are discriminated against and they harass, threaten and do other things to you. If that isn't uncontitutional I don't know what is? All you have to do is replace the name Christian with Al-Queda and it's the same format.Kudos to him for standing up, it took balls.

[speedz99 145]

Like I said before I totally agree. But being a realist as to what the army is and what goes on, standing out (unless it is being exceptional at your training) is not looked highly upon in any area. There are also reasons for this, the people you go into battle with have to trust you and vice versa. You don't have to necessarily believe in all the same things, but you also cannot completely dismiss it either, especially something like this that is such a volatile subject to begin with.

I agree completely. Randy's info does change everything though..

more assumptions. there was nothing in the article that implied he wasn't respecting what others were doing. the only example was him being discrimiated against because he wouldn't actively pray in a group himself. huge difference. yeah if he's being an a-hole about it he deserves what he gets, but you don't know that's the case.

That's not an assumption. The article says he didn't take part in prayers. My personal take on that is it would be respectful to bow your head when others are praying.

[Balloon guy 158]

They're not making assumptions, they're making accusations. There's a difference.Unfortunately, this is the world we live in. The military probably consists of one of the least enlightened (in terms of religious tolerance) groups out there. Some day this won't be an issue, but for now we have to just accept the fact that, in the armed forces, dumbass christians vastly outnumber intelligent christians and all non-christians. And if we want to keep them happy we'll have to deal with a few atheists that are too stubborn to bow their heads once in a while out of respect to the people who take strength from prayer.

Pot...meet Kettle

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Basically there are 2 very large Christian organizations that are sweeping the army. If you don't join and donate part of your pay you are discriminated against and they harass, threaten and do other things to you. If that isn't uncontitutional I don't know what is? All you have to do is replace the name Christian with Al-Queda and it's the same format.Kudos to him for standing up, it took balls.

okay, well, that's insane. Really really insane. I think the guy was dumb to not fake being christian, but this is extremely unacceptible

[Balloon guy 158]

Basically there are 2 very large Christian organizations that are sweeping the army. If you don't join and donate part of your pay you are discriminated against and they harass, threaten and do other things to you. If that isn't uncontitutional I don't know what is? All you have to do is replace the name Christian with Al-Queda and it's the same format.Kudos to him for standing up, it took balls.

What's going to happen when these 2 organizations meet?That's going to be the real battle

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I do wish I had a little piece of these organizations, how ever. Someone's making a bundle.

[speedz99 145]

Pot...meet Kettle

Ah, I see the problem. You literally don't know what "assumption" means.

[Randy Reed 0]

I do wish I had a little piece of these organizations, how ever. Someone's making a bundle.

Bingo!

[Balloon guy 158]

okay, well, that's insane. Really really insane. I think the guy was dumb to not fake being christian, but this is extremely unacceptible

It is insane, so insane that I have to say it is unbelievable.1st, I know Christians, I know Christian organizations, I know Christian witnessing techniques and missionaries and pastors. I do not know any group that ever uses pressure to get converts that includes death threats. Only hell for eternity.2nd, I know a few soldiers, they like to live hard, drinking, fighting etc. I hardly think that the whole military has decided to sit back while crochet clubs take over, why would they sit back and let some church take over?3rd, This soldier was a Christian when he entered, now he's not. Was he promoted because he was a christian? I doubt it. If he was than he was okay with using his beliefs to get, it's a bit hypocritical to get upset when he stops dating the bosses daughter to act like his job shouldn't be affected.

[Balloon guy 158]

Ah, I see the problem. You literally don't know what "assumption" means.

lolI'll assume you are just kidding.

[Balloon guy 158]

Basically there are 2 very large Christian organizations that are sweeping the army. If you don't join and donate part of your pay you are discriminated against and they harass, threaten and do other things to you. If that isn't uncontitutional I don't know what is? All you have to do is replace the name Christian with Al-Queda and it's the same format.Kudos to him for standing up, it took balls.

I wonder if Spademan will have the balls to stand up to them?

[Balloon guy 158]

I love the liberal media.They go out of their way to make every effort to not offend muslims, to the point of refusing to use the word Jihad etc.But they have no problem making wild assumptions about the practises of Christians in the military, and their secret plans to take over.And you guys just eat it up...oh look out for the big bad Christian monster pushing those poor young marines around and making colonels do their bidding or else they will get the boot.I'm sure the Jews are next in the military, I sure wouldn't want to be a Jewish Chaplin...no chance to ever advance. ever.I bet if we ever vote in an athiest ( which won't happen in our lifetime) the military coup will be almost immediate.

[El Guapo 8]

Without any knowledge or research, I would venture a guess that these organizations are regional and there influence has a lot to do with each command groups beliefs, especially the leaders of those groups.I think it is safe to assume he was stationed with some zealots and again a mob mentality most likely took over.Also I think BG hit something there too, how many enlisted soldiers have you ever met that are not out boozing it up, getting hookers, looking to hook up with anything that moves, and just blow off steam as violent and reckless as possible. Ever single one of the people that I know more than just an acquaintance that was in the military did most or all of those things, whether it be Army, Navy, Marines, or even Air Force. (Enlisted not officers, officers have a stick up their butts for the most part).

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

1st, I know Christians, I know Christian organizations, I know Christian witnessing techniques and missionaries and pastors. I do not know any group that ever uses pressure to get converts that includes death threats. Only hell for eternity.

Someone else might bite on this, but not me..

2nd, I know a few soldiers, they like to live hard, drinking, fighting etc. I hardly think that the whole military has decided to sit back while crochet clubs take over, why would they sit back and let some church take over?

Because the vast majority of people in the military are christian? Because they think it's good for morale ( For most of the troops, at least)? Because they aren't supposed to prevent the free exercise of religions?

3rd, This soldier was a Christian when he entered, now he's not. Was he promoted because he was a christian? I doubt it. If he was than he was okay with using his beliefs to get, it's a bit hypocritical to get upset when he stops dating the bosses daughter to act like his job shouldn't be affected.

That isn't how work place discrimination works. Being white and/or being a man might not help you advance at your workplace, but being black and/or a woman might put a ceiling on how far you can advance. That's really what he's arguing here. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's not the same thing as dating the boss's daughter, and being a Christian wouldn't have helped him advance, but I think it's plausible at least that being an atheist hurt his chances to advance. And for the record, I think it's fine that it did. If his men would have a hard time respecting him because he's an atheist, that's a problem in combat leadership. In some of the less front line military positions, say, back at the pentagon or in research and development, I would hope a person's job competency would be the only thing that mattered, but in combat positions, amoung enlisted men, I can certainly see why they'd rather someone be a christian and lead prayers and what not. I don't know to what extent any of this is true or not, about these organizations and what RR brought up, but it's peaked my interest.

[Balloon guy 158]

Jewish Chaplain in Iraq

How many Jewish soldiers are stationed in Iraq? It's difficult to get an accurate count, because they often avoid designating their "faith group" in military databases, especially once they find out they'll be deployed to an Arab country.

Someone needs to call this poor fool and help him understand that the military does in fact have their numbers, and they are coming to get em.

[Balloon guy 158]

Someone else might bite on this, but not me..Because the vast majority of people in the military are christian? Because they think it's good for morale ( For most of the troops, at least)? Because they aren't supposed to prevent the free exercise of religions? That isn't how work place discrimination works. Being white and/or being a man might not help you advance at your workplace, but being black and/or a woman might put a ceiling on how far you can advance. That's really what he's arguing here. I don't know if it's true or not, but it's not the same thing as dating the boss's daughter, and being a Christian wouldn't have helped him advance, but I think it's plausible at least that being an atheist hurt his chances to advance. And for the record, I think it's fine that it did. If his men would have a hard time respecting him because he's an atheist, that's a problem in combat leadership. In some of the less front line military positions, say, back at the pentagon or in research and development, I would hope a person's job competency would be the only thing that mattered, but in combat positions, amoung enlisted men, I can certainly see why they'd rather someone be a christian and lead prayers and what not. I don't know to what extent any of this is true or not, about these organizations and what RR brought up, but it's peaked my interest.

My Brother in law just got his 3rd star. He quit being a Christain when he was an LT, and voted for Clinton twice.Real life keeps making the assumption of the CNN story a clear chicken little story.

[Jackie Childs 0]

It's an infringement on your constitutional rights. It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous.That's totally inappropriate. It's lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!

[CaneBrain 95]

My Brother in law just got his 3rd star. He quit being a Christain when he was an LT, and voted for Clinton twice.Real life keeps making the assumption of the CNN story a clear chicken little story.

Clearly. You're one anecdotal story is way more convincing than CNN's one anecdotal story. maybe you and CNN have more in common than you think.

[Randy Reed 0]

It is insane, so insane that I have to say it is unbelievable.1st, I know Christians, I know Christian organizations, I know Christian witnessing techniques and missionaries and pastors. I do not know any group that ever uses pressure to get converts that includes death threats. Only hell for eternity.2nd, I know a few soldiers, they like to live hard, drinking, fighting etc. I hardly think that the whole military has decided to sit back while crochet clubs take over, why would they sit back and let some church take over?3rd, This soldier was a Christian when he entered, now he's not. Was he promoted because he was a christian? I doubt it. If he was than he was okay with using his beliefs to get, it's a bit hypocritical to get upset when he stops dating the bosses daughter to act like his job shouldn't be affected.

BG, I'm not being sarcastic or trying to be rude in any way. You can believe and twist this any way you want. I'm just stating the fact as I saw it. This was personal interviews with many people including ranking military. They basically said if you weren't Christian they didn't want any part of you. They openly admitted to trying to enlist everyone they could as they envision a strong (evangelical) Christian army to deal with all the other religons who oppose them. They envision readying a Christian army to eventually fight Muslims or whoever oppose them. The propoganda they espouse is frightening. My wife is christian and was appalled and terrified by the expose.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

They're not making assumptions, they're making accusations. There's a difference.Unfortunately, this is the world we live in. The military probably consists of one of the least enlightened (in terms of religious tolerance) groups out there. Some day this won't be an issue, but for now we have to just accept the fact that, in the armed forces, dumbass christians vastly outnumber intelligent christians and all non-christians. And if we want to keep them happy we'll have to deal with a few atheists that are too stubborn to bow their heads once in a while out of respect to the people who take strength from prayer.

This just isn't true. I have spent time in two branches of the military and there are plenty of athiests(many vocal) walking around. I never in 7 years saw a prayer anywhere except in chapel services.(I was never in a war zone- I could see where those preparing for battle would get together and pray). If the guy was targeted for abuse because someone saw him not participating in a prayer then something should be done to those abusing/threatening him. I just can't imagine that being the case. If on the other hand he went to the press or authority and complained and was trying to get action taken to make Christians stop praying then he is the one who is violating others rights to freedom of religion. I guess there is no need to debate any further because none of us know what happened, though I think it is clear the CNN story is meant to make the military look like a mob of torch weilding Jesus Freaks out to destroy the poor misunderstood athiest. I just have never before seen in my time in the military ( or anywhere else) where someone was singled out simply for not participating in a prayer. You would think in my 39 years here in the intollerant, Theocracy of a nation I would have actually witnessed the abuse of an athiest by Christians. I have simply never seen anything close. I do of course witness everyday in the press the demonizing of my faith as the root of all that is evil in the world.

[copernicus 0]

. They basically said if you weren't Christian they didn't want any part of you.

I guess it was different when there was a draft, because that certainly wasnt true when I was in the Army.