Question For Christians

[crowTrobot 2]

no. that isn't what I was saying.

i'd like to know what you were saying then. sounded just like pascal's wager to me. you're not worried if you're wrong but i'm in trouble if i'm wrong etc.

[Sal Paradise 57]

if you are seeking truth you should take the next step and consider the possiblity that these theologies aren't making sense to you because you're an educated modern human with an evolved sense or morality, and they are all nothing more than glorified mythology conceived by primitive superstitious humans with antiquated moral sensibilities.

do you have this sentence saved on your computer as a macro or something?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

do you have this sentence saved on your computer as a macro or something?

Probably keyed to F12... F11 is.. "I only believe in one less god than you"

[crowTrobot 2]

Probably keyed to F12... F11 is.. "I only believe in one less god than you"

that would make no sense to say. it's disbelieve in one more god. if ur gonna mock, at least get it right B)

[brvheart 1,752]

i'd like to know what you were saying then. sounded just like pascal's wager to me. you're not worried if you're wrong but i'm in trouble if i'm wrong etc.

i'd like to know what you were saying then. sounded just like pascal's wager to me. you're not worried if you're wrong but i'm in trouble if i'm wrong etc.

Ok, let's change the subject and talk about Pascal's Wager. The only way possible that I would be in any trouble is with the amazing logic of Dawkins and his sheeple that says "What if God rewards people for using logic and deciding he doesn't exist", which is pretty dang stupid, and easy to be dismissed. That particular god wouldn't care enough about us to reward or punish anyone. He wouldn't want any human in heaven with him at all. You're trying to say, "That god will reward me for being smarter than these other people that just had blind faith." Why would an all knowing god give two shits about any human's intelligence? That's just so stupid I can't even believe people like yourself can buy into that as if it's a smart idea. None of the Hindi gods care what I do, Buddha doesn't care, and in the Koran it says I'm covered as well....Sura 2:62 Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who 1) believes in GOD, and 2) believes in the Last Day, and 3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. Also, if I believe in the wrong god because he doesn't care enough to reveal himself to ANYONE then it doesn't matter either, because that god wouldn't bother punishing or rewarding me.In summary, your flippant dismissal of Pascal's wager is fine with me. I could care less if you want to fabricate a weak argument so you don't have to worry. What I'm saying, and we agree, that if I'm wrong it doesn't matter. You are totally fine with not believing in any of the other gods as well... so if it's good for you, doesn't it make logical sense that it's good for me too? You are correct, like yourself, I have nothing to worry about.

[vbnautilus 48]

Also, if I believe in the wrong god because he doesn't care enough to reveal himself to ANYONE then it doesn't matter either, because that god wouldn't bother punishing or rewarding me.

But how would you know that? It seems to me you are putting arbitrary restrictions on the hypothetical god. You are not in a position to make rulings about a theology which is unknown to you. For example, it is well-known that FSM strikes down non-believers from time to time with his noodly appendage. You really want to take that risk?!?!

[brvheart 1,752]

But how would you know that? It seems to me you are putting arbitrary restrictions on the hypothetical god. You are not in a position to make rulings about a theology which is unknown to you. For example, it is well-known that FSM strikes down non-believers from time to time with his noodly appendage. You really want to take that risk?!?!

I'm not putting any restrictions on anything. Crow thinks we should use logic since this unknown 'god' cares alot about that. Would an unknown god who doesn't care enough to ever talk about himself or show himself to anyone punish or reward anyone? How does that make logical sense?The rest of this post makes my own point. A child could come up with thousands of ways that I would be in trouble, like the FSM, but then EVERYONE is in the same boat as me SO IT DOESN'T MATTER.

[vbnautilus 48]

The rest of this post makes my own point. A child could come up with thousands of ways that I would be in trouble, like the FSM, but then EVERYONE is in the same boat as me SO IT DOESN'T MATTER.

That's right!! But it also mean's that Pascal's Wager is not a viable justification for the decision to believe in god, since you can never really hedge your bets against all the possibilities.

[brvheart 1,752]

That's right!! But it also mean's that Pascal's Wager is not a viable justification for the decision to believe in god, since you can never really hedge your bets against all the possibilities.

Part of Pascal's wager was to throw out all the possibilities that don't matter, which is a lot.

[vbnautilus 48]

Part of Pascal's wager was to throw out all the possibilities that don't matter, which is a lot.

Not enough. The part of the wager that is relevant is the part which assumes there is no cost for not believing in your god. The point is that you cannot know that this is true.

[copernicus 0]

Reductio ad Hitlerum meaning equateing your ideas with a group of hated people, to thereby make agreeing with you the same as agreeing with them.

Classic! This needs to be added to the wiki "logical fallacies" entry.

[crowTrobot 2]

Also, if I believe in the wrong god because he doesn't care enough to reveal himself to ANYONE then it doesn't matter either, because that god wouldn't bother punishing or rewarding me.

you assume your god has revealed himself to me and/or that the fact that he has supposedly revealed himself to anyone should be significant to me. he certainly has not revealed himself to me (i don't believe in him because i think there's no evidence he exists, not because i think there's reason to believe but am rebelling). and what you or anyone else thinks about him revealing himself to mankind means nothing to me because i consider religious belief to be delusion. i don't believe in your god for the same reasons you don't believe in the unknown god. we both consider our reasons to be good.so.. you're holding this "unknown" god and your god to different standards of logic. if your god sends people who reject him for good reasons to hell then there's certainly no reason for you to say an unknown god wouldn't do the same.

[crowTrobot 2]

I'm not putting any restrictions on anything. Crow thinks we should use logic since this unknown 'god' cares alot about that.

you quoted something dawkins said, not me. i'm not making any assumptions about how logical an unknown god has to be. and yes you are putting restrictions on him. for all you know he might specifically send christians to hell and save non-christians for whatever reason (might sound ridiculous, but is logically no more or less ridiculous than the opposite). pascal's wager wouldn't help you much then.

[brvheart 1,752]

you assume your god has revealed himself to me and/or that the fact that he has supposedly revealed himself to anyone should be significant to me. he certainly has not revealed himself to me (i don't believe in him because i think there's no evidence he exists, not because i think there's reason to believe but am rebelling). and what you or anyone else thinks about him revealing himself to mankind means nothing to me because i consider religious belief to be delusion. i don't believe in your god for the same reasons you don't believe in the unknown god. we both consider our reasons to be good.

I'm not saying that my God has revealed himself to you. I'm saying it doesn't matter if he has or not. My relationship with God has nothing to do with you. What I am saying is that none of the other possibilities matter either, because I'm either going to heaven or I'm in the same boat as everyone else, including you.

so.. you're holding this "unknown" god and your god to different standards of logic. if your god sends people who reject him for good reasons to hell then there's certainly no reason for you to say an unknown god wouldn't do the same.

What are some "good" reasons that an unknown god, who by definition doesn't care enough to talk to anyone, would have to send people to hell or heaven?(please make sure you think of some good solid logical reasons that this "god" would have)

[Balloon guy 158]

Classic! This needs to be added to the wiki "logical fallacies" entry.

Why? It's already in the wiki "Propaganda techniques" entry.

[Balloon guy 158]

52% of the world accepts species descent through evolution (2007 poll i think). people's beliefs on whether and how much god may have been involved in the process is another issue, but certainly world-wide there are way more people that believe in evolution than in the bible (i'm not arguing that numbers = truth, just pointing out your misconceptions about the status of evolution).literary value? i'll take lord of the rings over the bible any day.your double standard is showing.

no i didn't. that thread was about the results of world polls, wherever they were from. i never said anything about the "whole world" being polled. even posted the chart i was referring to in the thread and it did not include china. you missed the point. there ARE NO actual polls from religious websites that say different. the article being referenced just lists the opinions of a couple religious authors and no data.the site i linked also obviously has a biased agenda, but it DOES at least references actual polls. it even links directly to them if bother to look.

Just getting around to this

[crowTrobot 2]

I'm not saying that my God has revealed himself to you. I'm saying it doesn't matter if he has or not. My relationship with God has nothing to do with you. What I am saying is that none of the other possibilities matter either, because I'm either going to heaven or I'm in the same boat as everyone else, including you.

unless there are negative consequences for what you believe.

What are some "good" reasons that an unknown god, who by definition doesn't care enough to talk to anyone, would have to send people to hell or heaven?

dunno. your god doesn't care enough to talk to me so why don't you ask him?

[vbnautilus 48]

What I am saying is that none of the other possibilities matter either, because I'm either going to heaven or I'm in the same boat as everyone else, including you.

But those are not the only two possibilities. You're specifically ignoring the possibility that you're not going to heaven, and some specific other group of people are going to heaven because of their belief in something else. I don't think this matters in the long run, but it just seems like a very flimsy line of reasoning to support your belief. I'm sure this type of wager is not really figuring in to your decision very much.

[crowTrobot 2]

Just getting around to this

as noted i never said anything about every country in the world being polled, and i posted the polls i was referring to so anyone that wanted to could draw their own conclusions from the data, and they did.why the personal vendetta in this thread?

[Balloon guy 158]

as noted i never said anything about every country in the world being polled, and i posted the polls i was referring to so anyone that wanted to could draw their own conclusions from the data, and they did.why the personal vendetta in this thread?

Does it seem that way?Hmm maybe..you seem to be the main proponant of the 'other' side, so I guess I am directing a lot your way. But it was someone elses bump of the thread that had the original world polls debate that I saw and remembered I wanted to respond to your other post etc etc.But no, I think you're wrong, but I don't feel anger towards you.I know some of my posts directed towards you using poisonous wording were meant to illustrate a reversal of your poisonous words towards my side in many of your posts. I don't think you really see how you come across when you make non-stop posts equating Christianity with non-thinking, non-logical, irrational and brainwashed troglodites. ( and yes I know you never used the word 'troglodite', but I needed an ending to that sentance and I like the word trogladite, even if it is misspelled)But we always judge ourselves by our intentions, the world judges us by our actions. You're non-stop attacks on my faith in a belittling manner is much more antogonistic than you think it is. Backpedalling with phrases like 'wanting me to see how irrational my thinking is' after calling it brainwashing and silly and the same as people that believe in the FSM only makes you think you are being the reasonable one. Personally I wonder why you contribute almost zero to the rest of the forum, it's like you have a one track agenda...and it's kind of 'rifle on the clocktoweresque'

[brvheart 1,752]

unless there are negative consequences for what you believe.dunno. your god doesn't care enough to talk to me so why don't you ask him?

Maybe you're not listening.

But those are not the only two possibilities. You're specifically ignoring the possibility that you're not going to heaven, and some specific other group of people are going to heaven because of their belief in something else. I don't think this matters in the long run, but it just seems like a very flimsy line of reasoning to support your belief. I'm sure this type of wager is not really figuring in to your decision very much.

Is zero very much?

[speedz99 145]

Maybe you're not listening.

Sometimes I wonder if it would be nice to believe that god speaks to me. I bet it would be very comforting.

[crowTrobot 2]

Maybe you're not listening.

maybe you're not listening to the god that punishes christians.yada yada

[crowTrobot 2]

Does it seem that way?

not really i guess. was mostly just some of your usual chain yanking.

I know some of my posts directed towards you using poisonous wording were meant to illustrate a reversal of your poisonous words towards my side in many of your posts. I don't think you really see how you come across when you make non-stop posts equating Christianity with non-thinking, non-logical, irrational and brainwashed troglodites. ( and yes I know you never used the word 'troglodite', but I needed an ending to that sentance and I like the word trogladite, even if it is misspelled)

never said christians are non-thinking, non-logical, or irrational people. said most apply a different standard of logic/reason to their religious belief than they normally would to other aspects of their life or to different faiths than their own, which is easily demonstrated.explained i was using the term brainwashed hoping to slam home the implications of religious demographics. it should be obvious that mental hardwiring caused by cultural influences, not logic or reason, is primarily responsible for what the vast majority of people in the world think is religious truth. there is no way around that fact. so the question i was trying to ask was why do you think christians (or if you want, you specifically) are the exception? it was not meant to be a slam on anyone's intellect.

You're non-stop attacks on my faith in a belittling manner is much more antogonistic than you think it is. Backpedalling with phrases like 'wanting me to see how irrational my thinking is' after calling it brainwashing and silly and the same as people that believe in the FSM only makes you think you are being the reasonable one.

are you referring to when i said "i'm not telling you you're wrong. i'm trying to get you (or any other religious person who's confident about their beliefs) to think critically about why you're so certain you're right."? if so that certainly wasn't meant to be condescending either. also i never said what you believe is the same as the FSM. the point to the FSM etc is that some of the arguments christians bring up to validate their faith are silly because they can be used to validate belief in anything.

Personally I wonder why you contribute almost zero to the rest of the forum

limited time so i stick to what's most important to me.

[brvheart 1,752]

yada yada

exactly.