John Bonetti Passes Away

[EStormOk 0]

Why because I might offend him? Is it better to make up something positive that isn't true than to say something negative that is true? I'm trying to think who the meanest douchiest dude I've ever played with at a poker table was........... lets say sam grizzle dies. Dude is straight up scum....I've seen him throw the entire muck at someone, I've seen him berate dealers, and try to start fights. If he dies, is it good for me to say "RIP Sammy, you were one of the true nice guys in the game, your ethics and good nature will always be remembered"? if not, and I decide to stay quite about him being a douche, how much time has to pass before I can give my opinion on him being a douche? Just curious.... I wouldn't ever say someone deserved to die, or say "good" when I hear someone's dead, but I will also never say good things about a guy I didn't like, just because they died. Here's a very smart and funny dead guy to lighten up the mood, and give people some perspective on their sensitivity...

To me it has nothing to with the deceased. It has to do with saying something negative in a time when it might be seen as the wrong thing to do. I have already said I respect your opinion and your right to say what you did, it just wouldn't be what I would have done. Opinions are like bad beats, we all have them and they don't matter in the grand scheme of life.

[Suited_Up 2]

To me it has nothing to with the deceased. It has to do with saying something negative in a time when it might be seen as the wrong thing to do. I have already said I respect your opinion and your right to say what you did, it just wouldn't be what I would have done. Opinions are like bad beats, we all have them and they don't matter in the grand scheme of life.

Bolded part is the key.Just because some people see it as wrong, doesn't really mean it's true. Most people are idiots. Who cares what everyone is going to think?

[EStormOk 0]

Bolded part is the key.Just because some people see it as wrong, doesn't really mean it's true. Most people are idiots. Who cares what everyone is going to think?

I understand your point. I just seen opinions being thrown about and thought I would add mine into the mix. I guess it goes back to when my mom use to tell me "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all."I don't think any less of anyone saying what they think they should say or feel the need to say, it just isn't what would be right for me. Again, just my opinion, not trying to change anyone elses mind.

[AAsnake88 0]

Yes. Too effing soon. You have a picture of Carlin as your avatar in tribute to his death - show some similar class.

10:53 AM Est. on Sunday, June 29th, 2008 6 weeks.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Couple thoughts...1) I love how people use Death as an excuse to lie. For some reason, when someone dies, we can no longer speak the truth about him/her, but have to lie about it. If someone was an azzhole, than their dying doesn't transform them into a saint. The same thing happened when Brandy died,it was like for some reason we could know longer talk about what a crazy, fcked up low level con slut she was anymore, but had to pretend that it was some great loss and some great unexpected tragedy, instead of like a 3-1 favorite that she'd have ended up the way she did given her mental make up. Perhaps it's out of concern for the people in mourning over John Bonetti's passing? Well, if any of his loved ones are reading this thread ( which I doubt) they need to have a thicker skin, I'm sure they are well aware of his shortcomings. Me personally, I knew nothing about the man, I have nothing to say about him, good or ill. I got kind of a kick out of him, the one time I saw him on tv. That's it. I have no opinion on his life or death. But I find it funny that people who have similarly little connection to him are so eagar to praise him at his passing, and so defensive about someone speaking what he feels is the truth.2) Which leads me to in general, the beautification of poker players and "legends" like John Bonetti. It kind of boggles my mind where this stuff comes from, how someone who is a professional poker player, when they get old and as long as they refrain from molesting their grand children ( *cough cough Slim cough cough*) they become saints, grand old men of poker. I'm sure a few big time poker players are truly good people, and I'm sure more of them are horrible, despicable people. But the vast majority of them are like the rest of us, with character flaws and merits, who do good things and bad things. As much as TV and the poker industry try and church poker up, the fact is that success at the highest levels doesn't tend to attract the most kind and loving people. It attracts the highly competitive, the greedy, the sadistic, the one's willing and able to prey on other's weakness. People possessing these characteristics might have great capacity for goodness and charity in them too, they might be complex people, but they are seldom saints. I find the hero making of athletes to be bizarre, but the hero making of poker players I find to be inexplicable and hilarious.3) Don't compare George Carlin to Bonetti. Carlin was a truly gifted artist who brought laughter to millions. He created, he wasn't a parasite. He's not a hero or a saint either, but at least he's left a lasting artistic legacy and that legacy, if nothing else, is worth respect and remembrance. Bonetti was a successful gambler that almost no one on this board actually knew, and fewer still knew well.

[looshle 6]

um, george carlin was my comedic hero.john bonetti liked to play poker.me and jc feel the same on death issues which is prob why we can relate to carlin and appreciate his thoughts/ideas.fwiw, i think jc could have just not said anything in the thread but it doesnt make what he said out of line or disrespectful imo.

[Gaffer 0]

Couple thoughts...1) I love how people use Death as an excuse to lie. For some reason, when someone dies, we can no longer speak the truth about him/her, but have to lie about it. If someone was an azzhole, than their dying doesn't transform them into a saint. The same thing happened when Brandy died,it was like for some reason we could know longer talk about what a crazy, fcked up low level con slut she was anymore, but had to pretend that it was some great loss and some great unexpected tragedy, instead of like a 3-1 favorite that she'd have ended up the way she did given her mental make up. Perhaps it's out of concern for the people in mourning over John Bonetti's passing? Well, if any of his loved ones are reading this thread ( which I doubt) they need to have a thicker skin, I'm sure they are well aware of his shortcomings. Me personally, I knew nothing about the man, I have nothing to say about him, good or ill. I got kind of a kick out of him, the one time I saw him on tv. That's it. I have no opinion on his life or death. But I find it funny that people who have similarly little connection to him are so eagar to praise him at his passing, and so defensive about someone speaking what he feels is the truth.2) Which leads me to in general, the beautification of poker players and "legends" like John Bonetti. It kind of boggles my mind where this stuff comes from, how someone who is a professional poker player, when they get old and as long as they refrain from molesting their grand children ( *cough cough Slim cough cough*) they become saints, grand old men of poker. I'm sure a few big time poker players are truly good people, and I'm sure more of them are horrible, despicable people. But the vast majority of them are like the rest of us, with character flaws and merits, who do good things and bad things. As much as TV and the poker industry try and church poker up, the fact is that success at the highest levels doesn't tend to attract the most kind and loving people. It attracts the highly competitive, the greedy, the sadistic, the one's willing and able to prey on other's weakness. People possessing these characteristics might have great capacity for goodness and charity in them too, they might be complex people, but they are seldom saints. I find the hero making of athletes to be bizarre, but the hero making of poker players I find to be inexplicable and hilarious.3) Don't compare George Carlin to Bonetti. Carlin was a truly gifted artist who brought laughter to millions. He created, he wasn't a parasite. He's not a hero or a saint either, but at least he's left a lasting artistic legacy and that legacy, if nothing else, is worth respect and remembrance. Bonetti was a successful gambler that almost no one on this board actually knew, and fewer still knew well.

Best post all day.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Couple thoughts...1) I love how people use Death as an excuse to lie. For some reason, when someone dies, we can no longer speak the truth about him/her, but have to lie about it. If someone was an azzhole, than their dying doesn't transform them into a saint. The same thing happened when Brandy died,it was like for some reason we could know longer talk about what a crazy, fcked up low level con slut she was anymore, but had to pretend that it was some great loss and some great unexpected tragedy, instead of like a 3-1 favorite that she'd have ended up the way she did given her mental make up. Perhaps it's out of concern for the people in mourning over John Bonetti's passing? Well, if any of his loved ones are reading this thread ( which I doubt) they need to have a thicker skin, I'm sure they are well aware of his shortcomings. Me personally, I knew nothing about the man, I have nothing to say about him, good or ill. I got kind of a kick out of him, the one time I saw him on tv. That's it. I have no opinion on his life or death. But I find it funny that people who have similarly little connection to him are so eagar to praise him at his passing, and so defensive about someone speaking what he feels is the truth.2) Which leads me to in general, the beautification of poker players and "legends" like John Bonetti. It kind of boggles my mind where this stuff comes from, how someone who is a professional poker player, when they get old and as long as they refrain from molesting their grand children ( *cough cough Slim cough cough*) they become saints, grand old men of poker. I'm sure a few big time poker players are truly good people, and I'm sure more of them are horrible, despicable people. But the vast majority of them are like the rest of us, with character flaws and merits, who do good things and bad things. As much as TV and the poker industry try and church poker up, the fact is that success at the highest levels doesn't tend to attract the most kind and loving people. It attracts the highly competitive, the greedy, the sadistic, the one's willing and able to prey on other's weakness. People possessing these characteristics might have great capacity for goodness and charity in them too, they might be complex people, but they are seldom saints. I find the hero making of athletes to be bizarre, but the hero making of poker players I find to be inexplicable and hilarious.3) Don't compare George Carlin to Bonetti. Carlin was a truly gifted artist who brought laughter to millions. He created, he wasn't a parasite. He's not a hero or a saint either, but at least he's left a lasting artistic legacy and that legacy, if nothing else, is worth respect and remembrance. Bonetti was a successful gambler that almost no one on this board actually knew, and fewer still knew well.

LMAO, what a terrible level. I saw right through your BS on this one, homeslice.

[Jam-Fly 8]

Look, I 100% agree that people shouldn't be made out to be good when their azzholes, just because they died. But immediately following someone's death, I believe that if you have something negative to say, it is better to say nothing at all. IMO, the main reason for this is for respect for their family and friends.

[PokerFan 0]

I was railing a Full Tilt table last night with Jen Harmon, Robert Williamson III and Mike Matasouw...A railer mentioned JB passing and these pros all did the condolences thing....when another railer brought up that JB probably was not the niciest guy around...they all played the "He was nice to me" card which to me is another indication of how JB really was....If you where in the "Pro club" he was a good guy, if not, you where less than dirt..

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Look, I 100% agree that people shouldn't be made out to be good when their azzholes, just because they died. But immediately following someone's death, I believe that if you have something negative to say, it is better to say nothing at all. IMO, the main reason for this is for respect for their family and friends.

Give me a god damn break, IT's not like JC is picketing his funeral.Also, there's nothing disrespectful about the truth.. the only people who get offended by the truth are people who are trying to hide from it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Double Posting is fun, for everyone.

[Jam-Fly 8]

I was railing a Full Tilt table last night with Jen Harmon, Robert Williamson III and Mike Matasouw...A railer mentioned JB passing and these pros all did the condolences thing....when another railer brought up that JB probably was not the niciest guy around...they all played the "He was nice to me" card which to me is another indication of how JB really was....If you where in the "Pro club" he was a good guy, if not, you where less than dirt..

are you implying JC is not a pro!!?!?!?

[Jam-Fly 8]

Give me a god damn break, IT's not like JC is picketing his funeral.Also, there's nothing disrespectful about the truth.. the only people who get offended by the truth are people who are trying to hide from it.

look, I'm sure you have some bad qualities just like anyone, if you died tomorrow, do you think your Mom or best friend or whatever, would appreciate people saying, "yeah, that guy was a douche", when those people could have easily said nothing?

[PokerFan 0]

are you implying JC is not a pro!!?!?!?

Did JC die as well?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

look, I'm sure you have some bad qualities just like anyone, if you died tomorrow, do you think your Mom or best friend or whatever, would appreciate people saying, "yeah, that guy was a douche", when those people could have easily said nothing?

Again, give me a god damn break. YOu think Jon Bonetti's widow is coming onto the Full contact poker website to see what strangers think of her dearly departed husband?

[Jam-Fly 8]

Again, give me a god damn break. YOu think Jon Bonetti's widow is coming onto the Full contact poker website to see what strangers think of her dearly departed husband?

isn't that being results orientated?okay look, I'll make a comparison of what this seems to me to be like.There's a rail thread on FCP for someone. That person plays poorly and finishes 5th. You think that person played badly. Do you, immediately after their bustout citicize their play? Or do you say GG?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

isn't that being results orientated?okay look, I'll make a comparison of what this seems to me to be like.There's a rail thread on FCP for someone. That person plays poorly and finishes 5th. You think that person played badly. Do you, immediately after their bustout citicize their play? Or do you say GG?

I'll tell you want I'd want, If I was that player. I want anyone who was watching to honestly and precisely critique any and all plays I made, through out the tournament. Because I want to be better, and I don't mind my plays and decisions being challenged by friends, because that type of discussion makes you a better player. Do people really want their feelings spared, or do they want to win money?Your analogy is a poor one, and your fear of offending hypothetical family members of Jon Bonetti by saying that he was rude to dealers and players is a irrational fear. It's just knee jerk politeness, which I don't in general have much use for. I'd wager you're from the midwest.other than the fact your local says "ireland" I guess that would be a bad wager, huh?

[Jam-Fly 8]

I'll tell you want I'd want, If I was that player. I want anyone who was watching to honestly and precisely critique any and all plays I made, through out the tournament. Because I want to be better, and I don't mind my plays and decisions being challenged by friends, because that type of discussion makes you a better player. Do people really want their feelings spared, or do they want to win money?Your analogy is a poor one, and your fear of offending hypothetical family members of Jon Bonetti by saying that he was rude to dealers and players is a irrational fear. It's just knee jerk politeness, which I don't in general have much use for. I'd wager you're from the midwest.

With regards to your first point, I don't think railers or players talk about the bad play of the player immediately after the bustout. A day later, yes, then they talk about it, but the majority of people don't talk about it right after.OK, you've given your opinion, I've given mine. Not much else to say.

[chgocubs99 0]

With regards to your first point, I don't think railers or players talk about the bad play of the player immediately after the bustout. A day later, yes, then they talk about it, but the majority of people don't talk about it right after.OK, you've given your opinion, I've given mine. Not much else to say.

I see what you mean with the bustout point, but it's not like someone that we interact with on forums here everyday died. It's someone who isn't a part of this community. If someone made a thread saying "Humberto Brenes at final table of Sunday Million!!!" and the he plays terrible. Yet, being nice, a few people say "Well played Humberto". Is it wrong if someone chimes in and says "Um, no, he didn't play well actually"

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

With regards to your first point, I don't think railers or players talk about the bad play of the player immediately after the bustout. A day later, yes, then they talk about it, but the majority of people don't talk about it right after.OK, you've given your opinion, I've given mine. Not much else to say.

I think telling what you perceive as the truth about a bad play, immediately after a bust out, or the next day doesn't really matter in the slightest. I think that perhaps if I really cared about the person who busted and improving that person's game was important to me, and I knew that he got unnecessarily emotional right after busting out, I might wait to say something until later, when he would have a chance of actually hearing what I said. But I don't think it's "wrong" or "right" to say anything, and me personally I'd like to hear anything anyone had to say about my play, at any point. However, the only issue I'd have about telling them now or later wouldn't be a proprietary issue, but a utilityissue. and that's why your analogy's bad. JC didn't tell Jon Bonetti's son or best friend that jon was an a-hole to him. And JC isn't going to tell his son that next week. It wasn't JC's intention to make JB's family know the truth about their Dad or lead to some insight about their relationship What he did was, offer his truthful opinion about the man on a message board that has fck all to do with Jon Bonetti's family, because people were painting him as a saint when clearly IN Jc's opinion (an many other's) he was not one. There is nothing wrong with saying the emperor has no clothes, even if the emperor is dead. But you're right, I doubt I'm going to change your opinion on this, and you certainly won't change mine, so there isn't much else to say.

[NoSup4U 0]

While I might feel it is in bad taste to bring up the subject today....JB is getting baked by a few posters on 2+2 that played with him. It seems they would not consider him a gentleman or an ambassador...fwiw

not true, just saying....

Too soon? PM me and lmk when the adequate amount of time has passed for me to give my opinion on a public forum. I'm not arguing about this, just saying that being PC is kinda silly imo.

I agree with these sentiments from my brief interactions with JB.Mark (and I probably wouldn't post except that a few people early on in this thread mentioned that he was a good guy and was possibly a mentor to Daniel or whatever and I think people should be remembered correctly and that we deserve to end up with the legacy we create, knowing full well that I've done a lot I regret that I wouldn't want to be remembered for.)

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

we deserve to end up with the legacy we create...

Absolutely true.

[SuperJon 175]

I'd hit it.

[fleung22 1]

Firstly, I was the one who started all the anti-Carlin shit, because I don't care for tribute-paying and I thought it was passively amusing to start some shit and nonsensically bash him.I would like to hear this story about Bonetti's chodeliness, so either post or PM, please.Also, I completely agree with your sentiment w/r/t false respect for dead people who were hated in life. The best was the reversal when Penis Pad (Brandi Whatever-Her-Name-Was) offed herself, and all the people who had been making jokes and toying with her unstable mind started talking about her as a great-but-tragic figure.

holy crap...I wasn't even aware of this. last time I was in the forum regularly it was still the crazy chick jokes.