Live $5/$10 - Value Bet Or Bluff Induce With Top Pair On River?

[Bookie 0]

Notes:- Relatively loose table.- MP1 would usually raise with high-cards, and as such I didn't put him on an Ax-hand, and figured my Ace was good against him.Live $5/$10 LHE:Preflop: Hero is SB with A , 9 (8 players)2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, BTN calls, Hero calls, BB checks.Flop: (6 SB) A , J , 5 (6 players)2 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, BTN calls, Hero calls, BB folds.Turn: (5.5 BB) 2 (5 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, BTN calls.River: (10.5 BB) K (5 players)Hero ?Is it reasonable to assume I'm still good here? Should I value bet this river? Or check-call to induce bluffs?BK.

[quadaces 0]

Sounds like your only worried about MP1, yet there are 3 other callers in the hand. 5 Handed on the river and you think A9 is still the best hand. There are a bunch of draws on that board and the K just completed one of them. Also someone could have been calling down with KJ thinking that middle pair could be could and just hit 2 pair on the river.Also, why didnt you raise earlier with such a draw heavy flop?

[Frez 0]

Also, why didnt you raise earlier with such a draw heavy flop?

Indeed. You hand is in way better shape on the flop than on the river. Lead out and hope to thin the field. It may not happen, but you have to try.As played, check call river.Nicely formatted btw - thanks.

[RabidTortuga 0]

I'm folding preflop alot here. We have a weak Ace oop against a big field. Unless we flop 2 pair or a flush draw, we're going to have trouble playing postflop against so many players, and rarely be in a position to extract value when we're good.Given the excellent pot odds you're being offered in the SB here, I'm thinking the call isn't terrible, though I'd rather have T9 than A9 here. Once you do come along, though, you have to find out early if you are likely ahead or behind, and the best way to do that is to lead the flop. If you are raised and there is a caller or reraise before it gets back to you, you know you have to improve on the turn or get out. If no one raises your lead, you have to bet the turn blank again, I guess.I'd still rather not be here with a well dominated hand oop, though, even for half a bet.

[RISEorFall 0]

I'm folding preflop alot here. We have a weak Ace oop against a big field. Unless we flop 2 pair or a flush draw, we're going to have trouble playing postflop against so many players, and rarely be in a position to extract value when we're good.

would you play ATo here? im finding myself folding A9 in spots i would've called or raised AT. is the slim straight possibility and the one extra hand that dominates us make the line at AT/A9? obv its situational...and yeah, your line here is weird. why lead the turn but not the flop? you read MP1 as having high cards but would he bet just high cards w/ no A into 5 people?if youre going to play the hand preflop, you should play it like it's the best on the flop until it appears you're beat. and you want to protect your hand on a draw heavy board.as played i'd check the river and call one back, as there's 4 still in and not much that calls you can beat. id hate to overcall here, too, but i might overcall one.only someone nutso will bluff into 4 people when it's obvious atleast one big draw has missed, so i dont think you're catching many bluffs.

[RabidTortuga 0]

would you play ATo here? im finding myself folding A9 in spots i would've called or raised AT. is the slim straight possibility and the one extra hand that dominates us make the line at AT/A9? obv its situational...

The more players, the more inclined I am to fold dominated hands. I'm terrible when I see two broadway cards, though, and find reasons to call rather than fold. That's likely a leak for me, though again, making the call here probably isn't a mistake if you play spectacularly postflop. In fact, it's probably a mistake not to make the call, but you have to be able to get loose from the hand cheaply if there's trouble brewing.I do not yet play spectacularly postflop. Thus, I try to avoid difficult decisions oop.

[Actuary 3]

Bookie,Were you hoping to c/r the flop but decided to not bloat the pot, given the bet came early?If so, I like that play.I'd lead the river, probably

[Bookie 0]

Bookie,Were you hoping to c/r the flop but decided to not bloat the pot, given the bet came early?If so, I like that play.I'd lead the river, probably

You're spot on, Actuary. I figured my hand was good, and was hoping to check-raise the draw-heavy flop to reduce runners, and bet out on a safe turn card. Given the bet came early, I simply called, as I realised the check-raise would just inflate the pot (as no-one who'd called the initial bet would fold), and this would give the draws even better odds on the turn, if they missed. As the turn was safe, I decided to bet out.Once the K falls on the river, I'm only really worried about KJ and QT. This is why I just checked, intending to call. Figured I might snap off a few bluffs, and avoid the possibility of being raised.As for those who wonder why I felt my hand was good: I felt I had a good read on MP1 (the flop bettor), and I'm sure he would have raised pre-flop if he had an Ace. Thus I'm pretty sure he was betting with a J, or even an outright bluff. Also, no-one else showed any real aggression. As such, if they had an Ace, it was likely worse than A9.BK.

[KoRnholio 2]

The chance of A9 being dominated at a loose live table with 4 limpers in front of us isn't that high really. I'd never fold it from the SB in this spot. We're about as likely to be the dominating ace here if others have an ace. Plus we could be dominating people who are limping 98, T9, J9, etc

[Actuary 3]

Once the K falls on the river, I'm only really worried about KJ and QT. This is why I just checked, intending to call. Figured I might snap off a few bluffs, and avoid the possibility of being raised.BK.

there have been several of these posted lately and tbh, I don't play anymore but I enjoy thinking about the gameThe issues are:1. Will worse hands call. How many?2. Will worse hands raise? Do I call? Overcall? Does it depend where raise comes from?3. Will worse hands bluff if checked to? Who is bluffing and who's tight/passive?My brain says to lead in muiltiway pots because:1. You have more bets to pick up, that will call but not bet (vs when you are HU and depend on one caller)2. Less people will bluff with 4 others in pot3. It should be easier to fold to a raise, given #2.I'm so bad at wanting to see showdowns in biggish pots though, that I have trouble and do tend to c/c too much.But here, I like a lead.to follow up, I agree with flop and turn, given your thought process.and welcome to FCP.

[Bookie 0]

As it played out, I checked and the whole table checked. I tabled my A9 and everyone else folded.

My brain says to lead in muiltiway pots because:1. You have more bets to pick up, that will call but not bet (vs when you are HU and depend on one caller)2. Less people will bluff with 4 others in pot3. It should be easier to fold to a raise, given #2.

You're right that given the number of players in the pot, the probability of a missed draw would bluff out here was very low. Had I bet out, I think I would have picked up 1-2 BB from weaker Aces or 2nd/3rd pair, given the size of the pot. Clearly this would have been the better play. I'm not sure though, if I could have folded to a raise, despite the fact that its highly unlikely that someone would bluff-raise me here (a clear leak in my game). It was this consideration, I think, that made me take the less-optimal check/call path.

and welcome to FCP.

Cheers, mate. And thanks to you and everyone for your insights! They're much appreciated.BK.

[RISEorFall 0]

I figured my hand was good, and was hoping to check-raise the draw-heavy flop to reduce runners, and bet out on a safe turn card. Given the bet came early, I simply called, as I realised the check-raise would just inflate the pot (as no-one who'd called the initial bet would fold), and this would give the draws even better odds on the turn, if they missed. As the turn was safe, I decided to bet out.

why try for the c/r?we dont know who will bet, or if anyone will, and giving a free card here is horible. bet out the flopwhy do you think you are ahead on the flop after one guy bets into several opponents and a couple of them call?it turns out you were the best, but i doubt you are very much, unless these players are really that bad.

[Bookie 0]

why try for the c/r?we dont know who will bet, or if anyone will, and giving a free card here is horible. bet out the flop

I agree that I wasn't sure if anyone would bet, let alone in late position for a c/r. However, I was sure that even if I bet out, I'm not folding many draws here. As such if I couldn't c/r, I wanted to keep the pot smaller, so that if a safe turn card drops, I can bet out the turn, and the larger turn bet might deter some of the draws from calling, especially with only one card to come and only one BB round left to act on. If an ugly turn card arrived, I'd likely just c/f to aggression.

why do you think you are ahead on the flop after one guy bets into several opponents and a couple of them call?it turns out you were the best, but i doubt you are very much, unless these players are really that bad.

First, some of these players are that bad. Second, I just had a good read on the guy that bet, and knew I had him beat. As for the others, they just smooth-called along. Most likely if someone had a better Ace, I'd have known about it pre-flop, and if they had a better hand on the flop, I think they'd raise to charge the flush draws and potential gut-shots. Third, if someone did have me beat, I'd find out on the turn, anyway.BK.

[GCP 0]

I agree that I wasn't sure if anyone would bet, let alone in late position for a c/r. However, I was sure that even if I bet out, I'm not folding many draws here. As such if I couldn't c/r, I wanted to keep the pot smaller, so that if a safe turn card drops, I can bet out the turn, and the larger turn bet might deter some of the draws from calling, especially with only one card to come and only one BB round left to act on. If an ugly turn card arrived, I'd likely just c/f to aggression.First, some of these players are that bad. Second, I just had a good read on the guy that bet, and knew I had him beat. As for the others, they just smooth-called along. Most likely if someone had a better Ace, I'd have known about it pre-flop, and if they had a better hand on the flop, I think they'd raise to charge the flush draws and potential gut-shots. Third, if someone did have me beat, I'd find out on the turn, anyway.BK.

BK, why would you want to keep the pot small if you likely have the best hand? This hand is very simple. Bet out on the flop, bet the turn, and bet any non-spade river. If raised on the river, you can re-evaluate based on your opponent, but I would probably pay off KJ or QT myself.

[Actuary 3]

BK, why would you want to keep the pot small if you likely have the best hand? This hand is very simple. Bet out on the flop, bet the turn, and bet any non-spade river. If raised on the river, you can re-evaluate based on your opponent, but I would probably pay off KJ or QT myself.

Because we don't have that much equity on the flop and may be able to protect our hand on the flop with a c/r or turnAnd we get info with a checkI don't think you always build pots with the "best" hand. if I may answer with my opinon..

[antistuff 0]

why try for the c/r?

because the flop is 6 handed, draw heavy, and you have a marginal hand. i wouldn't have thought of it, but trying for a check raise is by far the best play here. internet games have gotten too tough, you guys have forgotten how to play 6 handed pots.

[GCP 0]

This is board is not "draw-heavy". The only legitimate draw out there are the spades. Checking-raising the flop is questionable, in my opinion, especially if the original raiser puts in a c-bet against 5 callers. You're opening yourself up to a 3 bet there.I would just bet out, bet the turn, and bet the river. Again, this hand is not that complicated.

[antistuff 0]

This is board is not "draw-heavy". The only legitimate draw out there are the spades. Checking-raising the flop is questionable, in my opinion, especially if the original raiser puts in a c-bet against 5 callers. You're opening yourself up to a 3 bet there.I would just bet out, bet the turn, and bet the river. Again, this hand is not that complicated.

there was no original raiser (unraised pot) and this board is definitely draw heavy. you have what is probably the best hand but its very vulnerable and the pot is very multiway. if you bet out people will have odds to call with just about anything. you don't mind if it gets checked through becouse then when you bet out on the turn you are giving 4:1 which is awesome for you. you need to go for a checkraise. its not close. opening yourself up to get 3 bet is not a problem. in fact, depending on who does it and how the other players react it could save you a bet or two.

[liveactiononly 0]

You're spot on, Actuary. I figured my hand was good, and was hoping to check-raise the draw-heavy flop to reduce runners, and bet out on a safe turn card. Given the bet came early, I simply called, as I realised the check-raise would just inflate the pot (as no-one who'd called the initial bet would fold), and this would give the draws even better odds on the turn, if they missed. As the turn was safe, I decided to bet out.Once the K falls on the river, I'm only really worried about KJ and QT. This is why I just checked, intending to call. Figured I might snap off a few bluffs, and avoid the possibility of being raised.As for those who wonder why I felt my hand was good: I felt I had a good read on MP1 (the flop bettor), and I'm sure he would have raised pre-flop if he had an Ace. Thus I'm pretty sure he was betting with a J, or even an outright bluff. Also, no-one else showed any real aggression. As such, if they had an Ace, it was likely worse than A9.BK.

At first glance i thought to myself "why wouldn't you check raise that flop"... But your response to actuary's post is very interesting.... Do you think keeping the pot small greatly increases your chances of winning by way of less callers?... It seems like that would have to be a pretty significant margin because your potentially giving up a number of bets by not keeping those drawing hands around. I understand you will get beat a larger percentage of the time, but i am not 100 percent sure that negates the size of the pots you would win. On to the actual play of the hand... I would think with 5 way action into the river someone has made a better hand, check/calling hoping to pick off a bluff seems to me to be the best option, check folding would be an option if a rock bet out or you had a personal read on someone.

[antistuff 0]

Do you think keeping the pot small greatly increases your chances of winning by way of less callers?

it minimizes your loses while forcing people who want to draw at long shot draws to pay more than they should.

[RISEorFall 0]

there was no original raiser (unraised pot) and this board is definitely draw heavy. you have what is probably the best hand but its very vulnerable and the pot is very multiway. if you bet out people will have odds to call with just about anything. you don't mind if it gets checked through becouse then when you bet out on the turn you are giving 4:1 which is awesome for you. you need to go for a checkraise. its not close. opening yourself up to get 3 bet is not a problem. in fact, depending on who does it and how the other players react it could save you a bet or two.

you bet the flop, they are getting 7-1 which is plenty for a spade draw, and somewhat close with implied odds for a gutshot (but they have to make up several bets and we shouldn't be paying that off)if you get the best situation where button bets and you get to c/r the whole field, theyre still getting 4.5-1 which is still plenty with a flush draw. AND you run the risk of giving off a free card, allowing 2-5 outers a free shot at beating you, which is way worse than giving 7-1.if you have a read that a LP player will usually bet here, then going for the c/r is ok. if not, you need to bet.

[Actuary 3]

nevermind.,.I'm sick of opining

[liveactiononly 0]

you bet the flop, they are getting 7-1 which is plenty for a spade draw, and somewhat close with implied odds for a gutshot (but they have to make up several bets and we shouldn't be paying that off)if you get the best situation where button bets and you get to c/r the whole field, theyre still getting 4.5-1 which is still plenty with a flush draw. AND you run the risk of giving off a free card, allowing 2-5 outers a free shot at beating you, which is way worse than giving 7-1.if you have a read that a LP player will usually bet here, then going for the c/r is ok. if not, you need to bet.

We are on the same page here, I feel like your giving up too much value to not be putting money in on that flop all together. Not to mention the lack of info your going to have on the turn. I'm still looking for a rebuttle from the original guy who posted about keeping the pot small in order to limit those longshot draws, gut-shot, bd flush, etc... I just dont see how it makes up for the lost value, as well as other factors we both have noted.

[antistuff 0]

i dont feel like i can explain my position better than i already have. go read anything mason malmuth has written about limit holdem for a much better explanation than i could give. the example he always uses is almost exactly like this except you hold qj and the queen or the jack is top pair on the board.

[RISEorFall 0]

i understand the position of wanting to c/r, except that it requires a lot of things to work in our favor and we still dont price out the draws we want to.we have to hope that it checks around to the button AND that he bets AND even then flush draws still are getting more than enough odds to call profitably. the only thing we accomplish IF this works out the way we hope it does it that we charge 2-5 outers 4.5-1 instead of 7-1, plus their implied odds on the bigger streets.and when this doesnt work we either give all draws infinite odds with free cards, or an early position player bets and the pot gets bloated anywayand theres just as good of a chance that we bet and are raised, forcing two cold on the field, as there is that everything else works out in our favor for a c/r