Event #24 $2,500 Pot Limit Holdem/omaha Final Table

[HoosierAlum 0]

I agree with both of these but honestly JDep, without antes are you EVER, EVER restealing light there? 3 to 2 against your restealing range is never going to be good enough. Let me see if I can stove it.

I already said, if he pots it I'm never restealing light bc he put in 25% of his stack and he aint folding. But if he min raises things can def change. I actually think he was getting better than 3:2, i dont want to do the math now but the stack sizes were: He had 280 to start I had him slightly covered. In the hand he opened to 70, and my reshove essentially puts him ai so I think he would be getting 1.67:1. My 280shove+his 70 in middle=350 he has to call 210. I doubt you will convince me a fold will be correct at that price given the hands I will shove for value. Maybe if he min raises things might change, but again so does the dynamic of the hand.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Giving Jon a pretty fricking wide resteal range (I honestly don't think it is anywhere close to this wide given the situation and the fact that there are no antes).....Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 327,050,064 games 0.005 secs 65,410,012,800 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.096% 34.60% 04.50% 113158247 14705638.50 { Ac6c }Hand 1: 60.904% 56.41% 04.50% 184480540 14705638.50 { 22+, A2s+, KJs+, A7o+, KQo }

prob not that far off if I'm shoving for value and Allen is potting/committing a v wide range like he was. I would fold dueces and 3s not sure if thats bad but if I had no f.e. I would. (pretty sure sticking it in w dueces is bad there but im not great at math)

[cwik 0]

I donno if it was already mentioned in this thread, but what did you have in that hand vs Kyle Kloeckner where you cbet, he raised, and then you looked like you were about to snap shove, but decided to muck after some thought? Were you just trying to get a read?

[RDog 0]

prob not that far off if I'm shoving for value and Allen is potting/committing a v wide range like he was. I would fold dueces and 3s not sure if thats bad but if I had no f.e. I would. (pretty sure sticking it in w dueces is bad there but im not great at math)

Yeah, I mean, its not a bad call for sure but its close. Here is what I think is probably closer to your range than the first one I posted and if he is getting 1.67 to 1, its a call (I was going by Cop's calcs from earlier). Still sucks.Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 219,174,912 games 0.005 secs 43,834,982,400 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 36.190% 34.44% 01.75% 75477791 3842179.50 { Ac6c }Hand 1: 63.810% 62.06% 01.75% 136012762 3842179.50 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo }

[HoosierAlum 0]

also whatever, i dont give a **** I hardly play these stupid things anyway. I'm gonna go to bed don't want to think anymore.(but seriously I do care you guys keep discussing this I'm curious) Some guys who are good at math like Bizzle and Cop should chime in.

[Naismith 0]

obv...but I really do think his spot is fairly interesting

<--- Cash game donk. Overplaying suited aces is what I do!

[HoosierAlum 0]

I donno if it was already mentioned in this thread, but what did you have in that hand vs Kyle Kloeckner where you cbet, he raised, and then you looked like you were about to snap shove, but decided to muck after some thought? Were you just trying to get a read?

Just a gutter/pair/I think 2 bd flush draws but one for sure. Actually almost did ship but pussied out Thats such a dry flop he will cr that with air so frequently and I don't have terrible equity if called. He admitted to me after he would bluff a ton there but actually had it that time.

[HoosierAlum 0]

Yeah, I mean, its not a bad call for sure but its close. Here is what I think is probably closer to your range than the first one I posted and if he is getting 1.67 to 1, its a call (I was going by Cop's calcs from earlier). Still sucks.Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 219,174,912 games 0.005 secs 43,834,982,400 games/secBoard: Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 36.190% 34.44% 01.75% 75477791 3842179.50 { Ac6c }Hand 1: 63.810% 62.06% 01.75% 136012762 3842179.50 { 55+, A8s+, KJs+, ATo+, KQo }

your missing quite a few handsbut Im done!Grinder Bizzle what do you think

[GrinderMJ 0]

your missing quite a few handsbut Im done!Grinder Bizzle what do you think

I dunno man, this hand is so stupid, with it being plhe, and no antes, I dunno what ranges to give people, I guess i am a braindead one trick pony. i'll look at it again tho

[RDog 0]

your missing quite a few handsbut Im done!Grinder Bizzle what do you think

Hmmmm.....given the dynamics that you mentioned, I don't think your range can be much wider can it? Cause Cunningham is not raising the button light there often. I mean, are you putting in like A2s there or A5o? I dunno........I have played PL much less than you but I think it changes the steal, resteal ranges by quite a bit.

[Suited_Up 2]

Ya know what though? Fuck this, cause math is way over rated. When you're 6 handed playing for a bracelet in the WSOP. Who cares about what is slightly the best play based on the numbers?If you have A6, what the hell are you beating? NOTHING! It's a horrible push. That's what matters. So tired of all this math BS when it doesn't matter. How many times are you going to be in this situation? Not enough for a few percent to decide your fate. It was a terrible play.

[mase_gotsem 0]

Ya know what though? Fuck this, cause math is way over rated. When you're 6 handed playing for a bracelet in the WSOP. Who cares about what is slightly the best play based on the numbers?If you have A6, what the hell are you beating? NOTHING! It's a horrible push. That's what matters. So tired of all this math BS when it doesn't matter. How many times are you going to be in this situation? Not enough for a few percent to decide your fate. It was a terrible play.

amen

[chgocubs99 0]

GL Allen walking to your car later

lol

I think everyone's more upset because they wanted you to win as opposed to really being mad at the play or Allen Cunningham.

QFT

Probably true but given the situation, I still honestly feel its a fold. But more than anything I am pissed that he binked.

QFTI'll let you smart guys dissect the actual hand, but here's how I see it (and mini-quandries like this have given me fits recently)"If I call, I'm probably crushed, everything about this says I will be. I probably don't have quite the pot odds to call, but it's close (the power of the weak ace...nothing crushes it). If I call and win, will the stack that gives me give me more EV in prize money than the times I fold and am the short stack? I also have to consider the stacks of the other players, the blinds, and they payout structure".If anyone gets what I mean and can translate it to plain English, great.Honestly, I think it's a call.But backing up a little bit, I don't know if that makes it right to raise in that spot. Anytime you get played back at your probably not in great shape. But if they don't have anything you may pick up the blinds. Goes back to the structure and blinds again.We've all thought of this before...and it's what makes tournaments, tournaments. There's no right answer to this problem, the whole hand is actually moderately standard. It's just an "LOL donkaments" sort of moment...it just really ****ing sucks when the guy taking the beat is the best player at the table, and has had a long history of getting his money in ahead for huge stacks deep in touranments with major prize pools and losing, and, in this case, a bracelet at the World Series of ****ing poker.Allen ****ing Cunningham.

[NoSup4U 0]

fckkkkkkk alen cuninghame

[looshle 6]

fckkkkkkk alen cuninghame

[PrtyPSux 0]

I think it's simple imo. Limp the motha f'ing button, minraise is almost just as good, maybe better, def close.so if he limps the button and Hoos raises he has 2 options, depending on his read he can call and peel or fold and lose the 24k, if he minraises he can fold to any 3bet and he gets a lot of bb's and guys like max to call light oop and take down more with a cbet postflop. On a side note, I don't agree with the people who are saying that 3 betting light in a plh tourney is bad... I'm not saying it's good in this particular spot, but I think in tourneys with no antes your re-steal range vs LP raises or players with certain "tells" should be wider than usual because that's the only time you're actually "stealing" when you're 20-50bb's, it's the only time the pot is actually worth taking a stab at with shit cards. However, since most "good" players don't steal too often, you can't be 3betting unless you have a very strong feeling that they aren't very strong. I may be wrong though, I don't play too many 0 ante tourneys.

[Vick12 0]

fckkkkkkk alen cuninghame

LOL...it's like Chrozzo post but better!

[Vick12 0]

I think these were the only 2 biggish showdown hands I played that weren't reported: I think blinds 10k 20k Max limps I check Q3dd flop KQ8 w 2 spades he checks I check. Turn red 2 he bets almost min like 22k I call river 3 clubs he bets 35k I make it 80k he calls and mucks.I think blinds were 8k 16:Max open limps sb, I had raised his limps the last 2 times and 3 out of 5 overall between plo and holdem, and we had been going at it in blind battles so I check Q10 half suspecting a limp rr. Flop AQ10 r he checks I bet 28kish he calls turn 9 puts bd fd out there he checks I bet 60k he snap calls, I'm almost certain he has a weak ace or maybe KQ QJ. I was going to bet biggish on clean rivers and I'm pretty sure he woulda snapped....river offsuit J, he checks I check back he has QK .thx for the rail everyone. I should have bluffed jammed the river against Max in that big pot early....so I'm kinda upset about that. I had AcKc3d4d and I actually almost called him on the river.. he said he had Kings and eights but not sure if I believe that given the way the hand played out and the river action....its possible tho. Besides that hand I was happy w how I played today even though I was tired as fk going on like 2 hrs of sleep since we played so late the previous night.Anyway, this really sucks considering I don't play that many tourneys and if I win that pot v AC I have the chip lead with direct position on the guy who was 2nd in chips and a table I felt that I could control especially short handed. Would have been nice to have some chips and not have to nit it up like you do in a pot limit ring structure. I really had an unreal shot at a bracelet if that holds......on the other hand I didn't play perfect obviously and made what I feel are mistakes in some spots on day 2. Oh welllll/whine

They were both reported.

Dude...seriously...S T F U!!!! What the hell is the point of your post? Hoosier wasn't sure these hands were reported...so he KINDLY takes the time to tell all of us here at FCP what happened in those hands. It's the kinda in-depth WSOP FT knowledge that most of us would otherwise NEVER get. Then like the deuchenozzle that u are...u make a snide asisnine comment on how it was reported? WHO THE PHUCK ARE U AND WHY SHOULD WE PHUCKING CARE????? There was ZERO reason for you to post that...just like there is ZERO reason for your existance here at FCP.Do everyone a favor here Marth-boy and take a nice long nap from the forum...pretty sure nobody will notice you are gone.Well maybe one person will miss u...Jamie aka Checkymcfold...aka THE DUDE YOUR E-STALKER RAILTARD ASH STILL HASN'T PAID....even though that debt is well over...what...2 months old???/rantJon....u rock...amazing to think of how much $$$ u would be up if Allen and Halfrek don't suck out on ya in big mtts....such a sicko!!!!!!

[OVERKILL 0]

Ya know what though? Fuck this, cause math is way over rated. When you're 6 handed playing for a bracelet in the WSOP. Who cares about what is slightly the best play based on the numbers?If you have A6, what the hell are you beating? NOTHING! It's a horrible push. That's what matters. So tired of all this math BS when it doesn't matter. How many times are you going to be in this situation? Not enough for a few percent to decide your fate. It was a terrible play.

Agreed. GG HOOS!

[HighwayStar 8]

Dude...seriously...S T F U!!!! What the hell is the point of your post? Hoosier wasn't sure these hands were reported...so he KINDLY takes the time to tell all of us here at FCP what happened in those hands. It's the kinda in-depth WSOP FT knowledge that most of us would otherwise NEVER get. Then like the deuchenozzle that u are...u make a snide asisnine comment on how it was reported? WHO THE PHUCK ARE U AND WHY SHOULD WE PHUCKING CARE????? There was ZERO reason for you to post that...just like there is ZERO reason for your existance here at FCP.Do everyone a favor here Marth-boy and take a nice long nap from the forum...pretty sure nobody will notice you are gone.Well maybe one person will miss u...Jamie aka Checkymcfold...aka THE DUDE YOUR E-STALKER RAILTARD ASH STILL HASN'T PAID....even though that debt is well over...what...2 months old???/rant

Quoted for awesomenessSuch a sick ending, I can't see myself ever calling with A6 in that situation regardless of the maths.

[Janfor99 0]

GG Hoos

[monix 0]

Personally, I think AC's call is very bad. He is ahead of nothing but a pure re-steal.GG Hoos...well played, and it was a tough break.

[Bizzle 0]

your missing quite a few handsbut Im done!Grinder Bizzle what do you think

I think it's simple imo. Limp the motha f'ing button, minraise is almost just as good, maybe better, def close.so if he limps the button and Hoos raises he has 2 options, depending on his read he can call and peel or fold and lose the 24k, if he minraises he can fold to any 3bet and he gets a lot of bb's and guys like max to call light oop and take down more with a cbet postflop. On a side note, I don't agree with the people who are saying that 3 betting light in a plh tourney is bad... I'm not saying it's good in this particular spot, but I think in tourneys with no antes your re-steal range vs LP raises or players with certain "tells" should be wider than usual because that's the only time you're actually "stealing" when you're 20-50bb's, it's the only time the pot is actually worth taking a stab at with shit cards. However, since most "good" players don't steal too often, you can't be 3betting unless you have a very strong feeling that they aren't very strong. I may be wrong though, I don't play too many 0 ante tourneys.

I think JC's response here is pretty accurate-I've read a few articles on PLHE tourneys which discuss the differences especially as it pertains to internet type tournaments where everyone has 10-30 bbs and you have a lot of awkwardish spots like the one that Allen worked his way into. One really good article discussed how light opens should be closer to pot (or pot exactly) when you have 15-30 bbs due to wanting to reduce the chances that people snap you, because when they do they basically have to commit their whole stack.However, when you get down to 9-15 bb range, the opens should be getting smaller (down to 2.5s or minraises) so that in instances like the current one, it allows Allen to play optimally against Hoosier, because Hoosier can't resteal light due to Allen being "committed" with any hand (even though he's not), but Allen isn't actually committed to the hand, oddswise. Obviously, this requires the player to be consistent in raise size with any hand they are opening with, but it does remove the chances of getting into an awkward spot.PLHE is weird because even a stack with 8bbs carries serious fold equity due to the fact that they can only pot preflop, so it results in a shortstack playing deeper than in a NLHE tourney with antes.TL/DR: Call is fine, Allen should have minraised or made it 45/50k and then folded.

[RDog 0]

I think JC's response here is pretty accurate-I've read a few articles on PLHE tourneys which discuss the differences especially as it pertains to internet type tournaments where everyone has 10-30 bbs and you have a lot of awkwardish spots like the one that Allen worked his way into. One really good article discussed how light opens should be closer to pot (or pot exactly) when you have 15-30 bbs due to wanting to reduce the chances that people snap you, because when they do they basically have to commit their whole stack.However, when you get down to 9-15 bb range, the opens should be getting smaller (down to 2.5s or minraises) so that in instances like the current one, it allows Allen to play optimally against Hoosier, because Hoosier can't resteal light due to Allen being "committed" with any hand (even though he's not), but Allen isn't actually committed to the hand, oddswise. Obviously, this requires the player to be consistent in raise size with any hand they are opening with, but it does remove the chances of getting into an awkward spot.PLHE is weird because even a stack with 8bbs carries serious fold equity due to the fact that they can only pot preflop, so it results in a shortstack playing deeper than in a NLHE tourney with antes.TL/DR: Call is fine, Allen should have minraised or made it 45/50k and then folded.

That's the weird thing, Allen had been making it 2.5x for much of the tourney, 50k at 10/20k etc, but here he opened bigger, assuming to dissuade Hoos or Max from snapping him off. The fact that Hoos still does makes it a crazy spot.

[SlapStick 0]

GG Hoos, thats so shitty, you'll be destroying some final table soon enough, thats two situations where you put yourself in amazing spots to take down a huge tourney, it can't hold up forever, gg, you did nothing but re-instate the fact you pwn at poker