Time To Put To Bed The Talk Of Kobe> Mj...

[PMJackson21 0]

This part reminded me actually of this year's Lakers, especially the bolded, if you replace Kukoc with Radmanavic:How was Orlando able to defeat the Bulls with Jordan in 1995? The answer lies with Horace Grant. He was the key to Johnny Bach's (Bulls assistant coach) "Doberman Defense", as it was called. The trapping defense the Bulls rode to three titles. Grant could trap a player and he was quick enough to fall back and get the rebound. When Jordan retired, the Bulls continued playing their defense and Myers filled in Jordan's role. In 1995, Grant left for Orlando and Chicago was left without a strong interior defender and rebounder. The trapping defense also gone. Bach moved onto Charlotte and the Bulls didn't have a power forward that could make it work. Dickey Simpkins and Corie Blount were not acceptable alternatives. The soft underbelly was exposed, and as anybody knows, you can't win without defense and rebounding. Phil Jackson was so desperate that he even tried Toni Kukoc there, hoping to stretch the defense with Kukoc's shooting, and increase ball movement on offense, but it wasn't enough to overcome their defense and rebounding woes.

[GeneralGeeWhiz 0]

Mad props to BigD for making this thread. I couldn't of said it any better!

[Naismith 0]

The Magic beat the Bulls because Jordan hadn't fully recovered from his time away from the NBA. I'm a Magic fan and I have no problem accepting that.I wonder what Jordan did to this guy. He's not even saying, "Look, Jordan was great, but it's ridiculous not to include these others in the argument." Of course, I think the only other player you can really put up against MJ in "greatest ever" debates is Bill Russell and he has him sixth...behind MJ.

[Naismith 0]

"Recently, ESPN named their 50 greatest athletes of North America. Guess who was #1? Jordan the greatest athlete? He was a one sport athlete, and as this site proves, he wasn't even the best at that. He was a terrible baseball player, and an amateur-caliber golfer. Best ever? They refused to define their criteria. Why? Because many athletes were better than Jordan. Click here to read more about it."True. This site does prove it.

[El Guapo 8]

Obv the guy has something against Jordan.

[Naismith 0]

Someone please send this guy dictionary.com's definition of the word "proven".This is infuriating, but I can't stop reading it.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I guess, with Bill Russel, it's really hard for me to judge, since I didn't see him play. But I find it extremely hard to believe, with that talent that the Celtics had on those teams ( compared to the rest of the league) thatL1) If you switch out Russel for Wilt on those Celtics teams, that you win even one less championship2) If you take Russel out completely, and put in a league average center, that those celtics teams STILL don't win a championship or two.Again, I don't think it's really fair to judge vastly different era, or judge positions so different as center and scoring guard. However, Jordan and Kobe play the same position, played at the same time for a while, play a similar game in general, and their era's are easy to judge.The first time I ever really heard this argument put forth was by an ESPN writer, right after his 81 point game. I forget the woman's name, but she wrote an article that Kobe was better. This was right after the rules changed, and Kobe was destroying the league like a serial killer. I even was becoming convinced that Kobe was better than MJ. Then, Bill Simmons pointed out that the game had changed dramatically because of the hand check thing, and that Jordan would have murdered under this era, as opposed to the 90's Eastern Conference organized mugging style. And I think he's right.I think Kobe is Jordan lite. I think they have many similar skill sets, both offensively and defensively. And even if Kobe rattles off 2 or 3 rings the next few years, his ceiling will always be Magic and Bird. Which is a really, really high ceiling. But his ceiling isn't Jordan. The only way he can get the stink of this game 4 off him, and challenge the throne, is as I said, to bring this team back from the brink and win the championship this year. if the Lakers lose this year, there will simply be nothing he can ever do to reach MJ's level.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Obv the guy has something against Jordan.

Is he from Cleveland/Detroit/New York/Utah/Portland/Seattle/Phoenix?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

"Recently, ESPN named their 50 greatest athletes of North America. Guess who was #1? Jordan the greatest athlete? He was a one sport athlete, and as this site proves, he wasn't even the best at that. He was a terrible baseball player, and an amateur-caliber golfer. Best ever? They refused to define their criteria. Why? Because many athletes were better than Jordan. Click here to read more about it."True. This site does prove it.

Well, I mean.. I guess I get what he's saying, if your definition of "Greatest Althlete" is simply person who has the most physical athletic prowess. Vince Carter at his peak physical condition could probably jump higher and run faster than Jordan. But my definition of "Great" isn't only based on the quality of your fast twitch muscle fibers.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

Then, Bill Simmons pointed out that the game had changed dramatically because of the hand check thing, and that Jordan would have murdered under this era, as opposed to the 90's Eastern Conference organized mugging style. And I think he's right.

People don't mention the other rule change that would have hurt Jordan's game more than the hand checking rule would have helped it.

[Suited_Up 2]

Kobe is only Jordan lite because he emulates every single ****ing thing Jordan ever did.If Kobe licks and puckers his lips one more damn time I'm going to lose it. And for god sakes, keep your ****ing tongue in your mouth you ****ing mockery!

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

Kobe is only Jordan lite because he emulates every single ****ing thing Jordan ever did.If Kobe licks and puckers his lips one more damn time I'm going to lose it. And for god sakes, keep your ****ing tongue in your mouth you ****ing mockery!

He doesn't do it on purpose. If you ever saw his dad play you would be saying the same thing, only Jordan wasn't around then.

[keith crime 8]

Obv the guy has something against Jordan.

maybe he's the only guy ever to lose money to michael on a golf course

[Suited_Up 2]

He doesn't do it on purpose. If you ever saw his dad play you would be saying the same thing, only Jordan wasn't around then.

No, I'm positive he does do it on purpose. His life goal is to emulate Michael. You saying Bean put his tongue out when he drove the lane? I need clips. Did Bean also always use the phrase "The game of basketball"?

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Kobe is only Jordan lite because he emulates every single ****ing thing Jordan ever did.If Kobe licks and puckers his lips one more damn time I'm going to lose it. And for god sakes, keep your ****ing tongue in your mouth you ****ing mockery!

I have a proposal, sir, that as a Christian man I pray you'll entertain on its own fucking merits.Go fuck yourself.

[CaneBrain 95]

Has anyone effectively argued in the past Kobe was = to MJ?I have heard questions as whether he would be or not.I mean the played the same position and have the same playing style, but Kobe (as BigD stated) is not MJ.Has anyone ever made an effective argument that MJ was not the greatest player ever?

You can ABSOLUTELY make an effective argument that MJ was not the best ever. You could argue Russell (more rings, era with tougher competition), you could argue Wilt (they changed the rules for him....once averaged 50 pts a game for a whole season!), you could argue the Big O (averaged a triple double for a whole season!), you might be able to construct a decent argument for a couple others.Would you be right? Not so sure. But it is not as clear cut as some people make it out to be.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

No, I'm positive he does do it on purpose. His life goal is to emulate Michael. You saying Bean put his tongue out when he drove the lane? I need clips. Did Bean also always use the phrase "The game of basketball"?

Oh sorry, I didn't see where you were from. I'm going to stop now, because I will never win.

[Suited_Up 2]

I have a proposal, sir, that as a Christian man I pray you'll entertain on its own fucking merits.Go fuck yourself.

Silly lakers fans.

Oh sorry, I didn't see where you were from. I'm going to stop now, because I will never win.

True, but my location has no bearing on that.There's plenty of video evidence to prove my point.

[Poppy_Hillis 11]

True, but my location has no bearing on that.There's plenty of video evidence to prove my point.

Actually it proves my point. If you ever see video of his dad you will see what I mean.

[Vandees 0]

I'm not a laker fan. At all. Hate their guts.But there is no denying Kobe is the best player in the league. Hands down. Defense, scoring, creating a shot. Its not close.TMac? VC? Sorry, no dice. TMac can score, and VC can dunk, but no D for either one.Now, should he have been MVP? No way. A little guy named CP3 was the MVP. I won't debate this. Its easy to be a "great teammate" when you're winning 60 games. All that being said, Kobe likes doing it in the butt "allegedly" against people's will. That takes him down a few notches in my book.

[SuperJon 175]

You can ABSOLUTELY make an effective argument that MJ was not the best ever. You could argue Russell (more rings, era with tougher competition), you could argue Wilt (they changed the rules for him....once averaged 50 pts a game for a whole season!), you could argue the Big O (averaged a triple double for a whole season!), you might be able to construct a decent argument for a couple others.Would you be right? Not so sure. But it is not as clear cut as some people make it out to be.

Growing up a huge Jordan fan it's tough to he wasn't the best ever. I will, however, say that he was the most complete player the league has ever seen.

[Naismith 0]

TMac? VC? Sorry, no dice. TMac can score, and VC can dunk, but no D for either one.Now, should he have been MVP? No way. A little guy named CP3 was the MVP. I won't debate this. Its easy to be a "great teammate" when you're winning 60 games.

You're entirely missing the point of what I was saying. I was never claiming T-Mac or VC were better than Kobe. I was just wondering if they would've been had they came into the league with the Lakers in Kobe's stead. T-Mac used to be a very good defender. How would his career have changed playing next to Shaq and for Phil Jackson? Maybe he wouldn't have become what Kobe is, but I'll always believe that he was more gifted than Kobe. That said, things happened how they happened and Kobe is the better player.Chris Paul is ridiculous. Seriously, I've watched a lot of basketball in my lifetime and seen a lot of amazing players, but I've never seen a guy dominate in the manner that he does. I mean, it's not like he's A.I. where, even though he's small, he's still the best athlete on the court. The way he controls the entire game is unbelievable, just taking little stabs at getting in the paint over and over again until he has an open shot or hits someone for their own. It is completely controlled chaos. It makes me angry that they didn't show many Hornets games during the year because I had no idea how amazing that guy is until the last couple months of the season.

[CaneBrain 95]

Growing up a huge Jordan fan it's tough to he wasn't the best ever. I will, however, say that he was the most complete player the league has ever seen.

not saying jordan was not the best. just saying you can definitely make a case for a few other players.comparing eras is so difficult it makes this kind of pointless. How does Wilt's season where he averaged 50.4 pts and 20+ rebounds translate to today? Impossible to say.

[Ron_Mexico 4,219]

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Quite frankly, I think T-Mac is the most gifted offensive player of the three and Vince Carter is the best athlete. Neither of them have the mental makeup that Kobe has, though, which is why he's the best of the group.How much of the mentality is bred from being a winner right away? Maybe none. But I think T-Mac is wearing the rings right now if he played next to Shaq early on and instead of thinking about him as a guy that never made it to second round of the playoffs, we're thinking about him as a winner. I don't want to talk too much about VC because for all his gifts, quitting on your city and your team and admitting as much makes you worthless in my eyes.

This has been addressed, but with VC, it wasn't about talent. Talent wise, he's probably a top 10 guy all time. Solid J, sick hops, good handle. But he lacks the key ingredient, the one that makes up for lacking in other areas. Heart, killer instinct, desire. MJ was a killer. He wanted to cut your heart out. Any piece you watch about the greatest people in their sports, they are sick about winning. Sick. MJs college teammate Buzz something tells a story about MJ cheating in cards just so he could beat the guys mother. MJ used to bet his teammates which bag would come out of the plane first, then he's grease the palm of the bag guy. He did whatever it took to win. Whatever. He wouldnt' let his own kids beat him in one on one games in the backyard. That's why he was great. He hated losing with a passion. Todays players just hug each other then go out to dinner.

The first time I ever really heard this argument put forth was by an ESPN writer, right after his 81 point game. I forget the woman's name, but she wrote an article that Kobe was better. This was right after the rules changed, and Kobe was destroying the league like a serial killer. I even was becoming convinced that Kobe was better than MJ. Then, Bill Simmons pointed out that the game had changed dramatically because of the hand check thing, and that Jordan would have murdered under this era, as opposed to the 90's Eastern Conference organized mugging style. And I think he's right.

Jemele Hill.I'm a ESPN.com junkie. Or at least a page 2 junkie.

People don't mention the other rule change that would have hurt Jordan's game more than the hand checking rule would have helped it.

which was?

You can ABSOLUTELY make an effective argument that MJ was not the best ever. You could argue Russell (more rings, era with tougher competition), you could argue Wilt (they changed the rules for him....once averaged 50 pts a game for a whole season!), you could argue the Big O (averaged a triple double for a whole season!), you might be able to construct a decent argument for a couple others.Would you be right? Not so sure. But it is not as clear cut as some people make it out to be.

I absolutely hate this point of view. Today's athletes are superior in every way, shape or form. Have you ever seen Cousy dribble a ball? Couldn't go left? Did you see how many white guys were in the league back in the day. (Ok, that will be my only joke, I don't want to lessen my point) Bill and Wilt were so much taller than most, more athletic, but certainly wouldn't come close to dominating like todays big men. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be stars, but not to the same magnitude. They couldn't hang with The Dream's low post game. The players today are just too athletic. IN all sports. Obviously, football is the biggest example or eras not stacking up. But baseball is the most telling for me. People say pitching is watered down, but I say the mop up guy, the 12th pitcher on the roster is a number 1 starter 40 years ago before that for most any team. Those pitchers were throwing complete games all the time, but they were throwing two pitches and throwing meat. Todays middle relievers throw 90+.And don't get me started on hitters. You think Babe Ruth and his 46oz bat and belly is gonna turn on a Mariano Rivera cutter? Hell, I shouldn't use Mo because he's a stud in this era. Babe Ruth doesn't turn on Kyle Farnsworth fastball. Cy Young's 511 wins? Cmon. He was pitching both ends of a double header. I'm passionate about this, sorry. But comparing eras is a waste of time. Yesteryears superstars maybe could hang in todays game, but thats all. IMO

[CaneBrain 95]

This has been addressed, but with VC, it wasn't about talent. Talent wise, he's probably a top 10 guy all time. Solid J, sick hops, good handle. But he lacks the key ingredient, the one that makes up for lacking in other areas. Heart, killer instinct, desire. MJ was a killer. He wanted to cut your heart out. Any piece you watch about the greatest people in their sports, they are sick about winning. Sick. MJs college teammate Buzz something tells a story about MJ cheating in cards just so he could beat the guys mother. MJ used to bet his teammates which bag would come out of the plane first, then he's grease the palm of the bag guy. He did whatever it took to win. Whatever. He wouldnt' let his own kids beat him in one on one games in the backyard. That's why he was great. He hated losing with a passion. Todays players just hug each other then go out to dinner.Jemele Hill.I'm a ESPN.com junkie. Or at least a page 2 junkie.which was?I absolutely hate this point of view. Today's athletes are superior in every way, shape or form. Have you ever seen Cousy dribble a ball? Couldn't go left? Did you see how many white guys were in the league back in the day. (Ok, that will be my only joke, I don't want to lessen my point) Bill and Wilt were so much taller than most, more athletic, but certainly wouldn't come close to dominating like todays big men. I'm not saying that they wouldn't be stars, but not to the same magnitude. They couldn't hang with The Dream's low post game. The players today are just too athletic. IN all sports. Obviously, football is the biggest example or eras not stacking up. But baseball is the most telling for me. People say pitching is watered down, but I say the mop up guy, the 12th pitcher on the roster is a number 1 starter 40 years ago before that for most any team. Those pitchers were throwing complete games all the time, but they were throwing two pitches and throwing meat. Todays middle relievers throw 90+.And don't get me started on hitters. You think Babe Ruth and his 46oz bat and belly is gonna turn on a Mariano Rivera cutter? Hell, I shouldn't use Mo because he's a stud in this era. Babe Ruth doesn't turn on Kyle Farnsworth fastball. Cy Young's 511 wins? Cmon. He was pitching both ends of a double header. I'm passionate about this, sorry. But comparing eras is a waste of time. Yesteryears superstars maybe could hang in todays game, but thats all. IMO

If you had read my last post in this thread you would see i said almost exactly the bolded thing you said. Thanks for the echo though.