Time To Put To Bed The Talk Of Kobe> Mj...

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Well, Lakers fans, it's been fun. That loss tonight was absolutely crushing. LA is absolutely done. That said, you have nothing to hold your heads down about, Laker fans, you have a great team that just ran into a bad matchup. The NBA playoffs are often just simply about which teams match up well against the other. Ask Dallas last season. I would have bet on Dallas to win any series, except to the 8th seed golden state, that just matched up well against them. The celtics just match up well against LA. Next year, with Bynum back, they would have a much harder time of it. At anyrate, LA is poised to make a nice little run in the next few year, so please, don't go on suicide watch, the future is bright.However, can we please stop the Kobe is > or = MJ talk please. MJ during the bulls run was never shut down like Kobe was in the second half, in a must win game. Never, never ever. Kobe is a great player, a top 20 player and will probably be a top 10 player before he's threw.. hell, if he rattles off 2-3 chamiponships in the next few years, maybe even top 5. But he is not on par or greater than MJ, it's time to bring all that talk to a halt. Kobe is in his prime, at his absolute peak. He will never be better than he is right now, he may be as good, but never better. And Jordan, at his peak, never ever ever could be stopped. He always imposed his will on the other team, he always got his shots off, he always got to the line, he always came up big in the biggest games. He never had a game 7 like Kobe had against Pheonix last year, and he never was never contained like Kobe has been in games 1 and 4. That said, Kobe can do one, and exactly one thing to revive this talk and stake his claim to the crown as the all time best. He can go off, absolutely go off, for the next 3 games, and carry his team back from the brink and to the championship. If he does that, well then, game on with all the praise, because bringing the Laker's back would be a historic, pantheon-style feat. But I'm not holding my breath.

[Dirtydutch 8]

Who're your top 10? If there are white people in it, and not Kobe, you sir are a racist.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

Who're your top 10? If there are white people in it, and not Kobe, you sir are a racist.

There are white people and no asians, indians, Hispanics or Canadians. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Russel. Oscar, Hakeem, Jerru West, Tim Duncan, Kareem.

[Suited_Up 2]

Agreed.

[Jadaki 0]

I was thinking this exact same thing last night, thanks for saving me the post.

[PMJackson21 0]

Well, Lakers fans, it's been fun. That loss tonight was absolutely crushing. LA is absolutely done. That said, you have nothing to hold your heads down about, Laker fans, you have a great team that just ran into a bad matchup. The NBA playoffs are often just simply about which teams match up well against the other. Ask Dallas last season. I would have bet on Dallas to win any series, except to the 8th seed golden state, that just matched up well against them. The celtics just match up well against LA. Next year, with Bynum back, they would have a much harder time of it. At anyrate, LA is poised to make a nice little run in the next few year, so please, don't go on suicide watch, the future is bright.However, can we please stop the Kobe is > or = MJ talk please. MJ during the bulls run was never shut down like Kobe was in the second half, in a must win game. Never, never ever. Kobe is a great player, a top 20 player and will probably be a top 10 player before he's threw.. hell, if he rattles off 2-3 chamiponships in the next few years, maybe even top 5. But he is not on par or greater than MJ, it's time to bring all that talk to a halt. Kobe is in his prime, at his absolute peak. He will never be better than he is right now, he may be as good, but never better. And Jordan, at his peak, never ever ever could be stopped. He always imposed his will on the other team, he always got his shots off, he always got to the line, he always came up big in the biggest games. He never had a game 7 like Kobe had against Pheonix last year, and he never was never contained like Kobe has been in games 1 and 4. That said, Kobe can do one, and exactly one thing to revive this talk and stake his claim to the crown as the all time best. He can go off, absolutely go off, for the next 3 games, and carry his team back from the brink and to the championship. If he does that, well then, game on with all the praise, because bringing the Laker's back would be a historic, pantheon-style feat. But I'm not holding my breath.

Good post, pretty much how I feel about it as well. I think you mean game 7 vs the Suns two years ago though.

[Jadaki 0]

Even though I can't stand Simmons, he agrees...

5. The Kobe-MJ thing ... done. Over. Jordan never would have let that happen in the Finals. Ever. Under any circumstances. Nobody is ever allowed to bring this up again.

[Naismith 0]

The Celtics, for whatever reason, matched up better with the Western powerhouses than they did with the teams in the East. I'm going to guess that the young, athletic teams were able to tire out the Celtics whereas in the west, the young, athletic teams aren't experienced or good enough to make the playoffs (i.e., Portland).I think this playoff run should end all the talk about how Kobe stepped up and became a great leader and team player this year. A team player and leader doesn't start the year demanding a trade and criticizing his teammates. Now that things aren't going smoothly, I think you see the real Kobe; bitching at his teammates, dressing them down on the court, stripping them of their confidence.

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The Celtics, for whatever reason, matched up better with the Western powerhouses than they did with the teams in the East. I'm going to guess that the young, athletic teams were able to tire out the Celtics whereas in the west, the young, athletic teams aren't experienced or good enough to make the playoffs (i.e., Portland).I think this playoff run should end all the talk about how Kobe stepped up and became a great leader and team player this year. A team player and leader doesn't start the year demanding a trade and criticizing his teammates. Now that things aren't going smoothly, I think you see the real Kobe; bitching at his teammates, dressing them down on the court, stripping them of their confidence.

In all fairness, Jordan did this too, if you've ever read Jordan Rules or watched, say, his years in Washington, you know that he could be a brutal, negative team mate. It's just that the bulls really didn't ever melt down or struggle once Jordan hit his peak, based mainly on his peak and his will. The one exception was of course was the "45" year, and that had a large amount to do with Jordan himself still being rusty. But, the next year they one 72 games out of the sheer force of his will. And that's the difference. Jordan has more will than any player I've ever seen, and players get swept up in it. Kobe just doesn't have it, at least not to the level of Jordan. I heard a talk show host this morning have a topic " Is kobe great". Meaning one of the all time greats, does he have greatness. And yes, I think he does. But there's great, and then there's Jordan. People love to forget about the past, and love to hype up what is new and what is now. But there was no one, and nothing like Jordan. His peers are people like Tiger Woods, not Kobe.

[Naismith 0]

In all fairness, Jordan did this too, if you've ever read Jordan Rules or watched, say, his years in Washington, you know that he could be a brutal, negative team mate. It's just that the bulls really didn't ever melt down or struggle once Jordan hit his peak, based mainly on his peak and his will. The one exception was of course was the "45" year, and that had a large amount to do with Jordan himself still being rusty. But, the next year they one 72 games out of the sheer force of his will. And that's the difference. Jordan has more will than any player I've ever seen, and players get swept up in it. Kobe just doesn't have it, at least not to the level of Jordan. I heard a talk show host this morning have a topic " Is kobe great". Meaning one of the all time greats, does he have greatness. And yes, I think he does. But there's great, and then there's Jordan. People love to forget about the past, and love to hype up what is new and what is now. But there was no one, and nothing like Jordan. His peers are people like Tiger Woods, not Kobe.

You know, I feel like I should have an argument here, but I can't think of one. Jordan was a terribly tough teammate. He was also a tremendous competitor and a great leader. Maybe it was just his total unwillingness to lose that makes me think of him differently. I just always feel like Jordan's guys would've died on the court to please MJ and Kobe's guys wish they could opt out of their contract, like, tomorrow.As far as greats, my list is Jordan, Bill Russell and then everyone else. With Kobe, I will always feel like he could've been replaced by T-Mac or Vince Carter and they would have had his career.

[PMJackson21 0]

With Kobe, I will always feel like he could've been replaced by T-Mac or Vince Carter and they would have had his career.

I couldn't disagree more.The rest of the post makes sense, but this is completely under selling Kobe's abilities. Kobe is simply better then both in every facet of the game.

[Naismith 0]

I couldn't disagree more.The rest of the post makes sense, but this is completely under selling Kobe's abilities. Kobe is simply better then both in every facet of the game.

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Quite frankly, I think T-Mac is the most gifted offensive player of the three and Vince Carter is the best athlete. Neither of them have the mental makeup that Kobe has, though, which is why he's the best of the group.How much of the mentality is bred from being a winner right away? Maybe none. But I think T-Mac is wearing the rings right now if he played next to Shaq early on and instead of thinking about him as a guy that never made it to second round of the playoffs, we're thinking about him as a winner. I don't want to talk too much about VC because for all his gifts, quitting on your city and your team and admitting as much makes you worthless in my eyes.

[CaneBrain 95]

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Quite frankly, I think T-Mac is the most gifted offensive player of the three and Vince Carter is the best athlete. Neither of them have the mental makeup that Kobe has, though, which is why he's the best of the group.How much of the mentality is bred from being a winner right away? Maybe none. But I think T-Mac is wearing the rings right now if he played next to Shaq early on and instead of thinking about him as a guy that never made it to second round of the playoffs, we're thinking about him as a winner. I don't want to talk too much about VC because for all his gifts, quitting on your city and your team and admitting as much makes you worthless in my eyes.

Gotta agree with Mr. Jackson. Vince Carter? Are you freakin nuts? Kobe is many things---ballhog, bad teammate, etc. BUT he cares about winning. Vince Carter is a bitch who never plays though injuries and hates going to the rim. He falls in love with the 3 and plays no defense. I see you realize how absurd this argument was late in your post. Good reversal. He may be a great athlete but he has never been in Kobe's league. Not even close.T-Mac is a better argument. Would LA have won those titles if you switched him and Kobe? Interesting. You are right on with the mental makeup argument. I tend to agree that LA still wins those titles with Tmac (probably not the first one though....I think they lose to the Blazers) but I know that Kobe would have gotten a team out of the first round. Still taking Kobe.Oh and yes, the Kobe/MJ argument and comparisons really need to stop forever now (unless the Lakers win 3 straight).

[PMJackson21 0]

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree. Quite frankly, I think T-Mac is the most gifted offensive player of the three and Vince Carter is the best athlete. Neither of them have the mental makeup that Kobe has, though, which is why he's the best of the group.How much of the mentality is bred from being a winner right away? Maybe none. But I think T-Mac is wearing the rings right now if he played next to Shaq early on and instead of thinking about him as a guy that never made it to second round of the playoffs, we're thinking about him as a winner. I don't want to talk too much about VC because for all his gifts, quitting on your city and your team and admitting as much makes you worthless in my eyes.

Maybe I just don't watch enough Rockets games because they bore the crap out of me. :)Re:mentality being molded by being a winner right away vs playing for a losing team, I'm sure you can find examples of both cases being true. You have players who played for bad teams/had bad starts to their careers and went on to have success (Aikman, Koufax...can't think of a good basketball example off the top of my head), and then you have players who struggle early in their careers (either personally or on a team level) and never shake that image. There is no doubt though that being around people used to winning has a tendecy of rubbing off on people. Kobe learned very early in his career what it's like to be a winner, and to never expect to be anything less. Also, I'm sure if Tmac ended up being paired with a dominant center then he would have multiple rings as well...oh wait... (i kid, i'm not even a big fan of yao's game)

[Jadaki 0]

With Kobe, I will always feel like he could've been replaced by T-Mac or Vince Carter and they would have had his career.

Wow, that's a bold statement.I think probably two of the 3 years the Lakers won the title with Shaq/Kobe you could fill in Tmac there and still win, and maybe VC to a lesser extent but I'm not sure how he would do in the triangle. Then you have Tmac's injuries, and VC's really non nonchalant attitude and inconsistent performances which drops both of them so far below Kobe's level the comparison really is a joke.The years where it was closer the Lakers needed more than just offensive prowess of Kobe, they needed his defense and determination (maybe some help from the refs) which I think we all agree Tmac and VC don't have at the same level.When their careers are all done, Kobe is a HOF lock, Tmac and VC still have stuff left to prove.

[slt1der 0]

It's just that the bulls really didn't ever melt down or struggle once Jordan hit his peak, based mainly on his peak and his will. The one exception was of course was the "45" year, and that had a large amount to do with Jordan himself still being rusty. But, the next year they one 72 games out of the sheer force of his will. And that's the difference. Jordan has more will than any player I've ever seen, and players get swept up in it. Kobe just doesn't have it, at least not to the level of Jordan.

In regards to the bolded part, can we Laker fans expect something similar next year or should we jump off the ledge like Poppy did?

[Naismith 0]

sighI really hate VC.Okay, I guess I have to do it.I think it's easy to forget how amazing Vince Carter was at the beginning of his career before he had the sex change operation. I'm not in any way trying to say that he's as good as Kobe, but he definitely had the ability to be what Kobe is. I'm just not sure how much damage was done by being "the man" right away and then eventually giving up on basketball; whether starting out next to Shaq and eventually have Phil Jackson coach him would have turned him into a superstud. T-Mac is entirely different. T-Mac's problems have come from a bad back that has turned him into 80 percent of the player he once was. He's a better passer than Kobe, though, and can still get to the rim effortlessly. When he is playing at his peak, he's every bit as dominant as Kobe is. He just can't play at his peak as much because of the injury limitations.I guess my point is that they each had the physical ability. Does VC still turn into...what he is today...if he plays on a winner under a HOF coach? Does T-Mac have the same injury problems if he doesn't have to carry a bad team on his back every night for 42 minutes per game? Do they both develop the killer instinct? I don't know.I do know that Jordan had it before making it to the NBA, though.

[tskillz187 0]

I think Pierce is getting shafted in this convo. Maybe 4-5 years ago I thought it was extremely difficult to separate Kobe, VC, McGrady, Pierce, and Ray Allen.I thought it was pretty much a pick 'em. Obviously the prime of each person's career here was at different times, but I think today it's easy to say Kobe is the best. I used to think T-Mac was, but Kobe imposes his will much easier and much more frequently than T-Mac. Kobe can get his shot whenever he wants it, T-Mac can just make incredibly difficult shots frequently.

[El Guapo 8]

Has anyone effectively argued in the past Kobe was = to MJ?I have heard questions as whether he would be or not.I mean the played the same position and have the same playing style, but Kobe (as BigD stated) is not MJ.Has anyone ever made an effective argument that MJ was not the greatest player ever?

[PMJackson21 0]

Has anyone effectively argued in the past Kobe was = to MJ?I have heard questions as whether he would be or not.I mean the played the same position and have the same playing style, but Kobe (as BigD stated) is not MJ.Has anyone ever made an effective argument that MJ was not the greatest player ever?

I found this site via google: http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/I only read the intro but I think I might get some entertainment value out of it.

[Naismith 0]

I found this site via google: http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/I only read the intro but I think I might get some entertainment value out of it.

That is awesome.

[PMJackson21 0]

That is awesome.

He has me convinced w/ his ravings.I also love this line that I have found on a couple of the 'evidence' pages (the condescending 'Thank you for playing.' is good too):However, Michael Jordan is NOT the best player ever, unless your criteria is endorsements and popularity - and if that is the case, then please leave, as I am only interested in discussing basketball with educated people and not fan boys.

[Naismith 0]

He has me convinced w/ his ravings.I also love this line that I have found on a couple of the 'evidence' pages (the condescending 'Thank you for playing.' is good too):However, Michael Jordan is NOT the best player ever, unless your criteria is endorsements and popularity - and if that is the case, then please leave, as I am only interested in discussing basketball with educated people and not fan boys.

I like where he mentions claiming Jordan is the best "pound for pound" player is just devising a handicap while admitting he's not the best and then saying Oscar could do things Jordan couldn't dream of doing.Very objective. You've won me over, sir.

[PMJackson21 0]

I like where he mentions claiming Jordan is the best "pound for pound" player is just devising a handicap while admitting he's not the best and then saying Oscar could do things Jordan couldn't dream of doing.Very objective. You've won me over, sir.

Maybe he has knowledge that Jordan's dreams are very boring? Maybe Oscar could hit minor league pitching, knew when to walk away from the casino?His top 5 is pretty classic too, but I've moved on to his breakdown of the 94/95 seasons, which is actually kind of interesting. Heh I like how everything he writes has the feel that you are being yelled at.

[tskillz187 0]

Is it bad that I was hoping for a video then saw extensive reading and X'd out?