fornicator1 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 If any one feels like flaming/ kicking a guy when I'm down thats cool do what you gotta do. If theres any one with some good advice I'm all ears as I feel like I have hit 'rock bottom'. This may be kinda long but i'll try to keep it as short as possible.First my poker background, I started playing in late 05 /early 06 and didnt have a clue. I played mostly sitn gos and some mtts and very few cash games, I had no clue about br mgmt, I would deposit $30, play $5 sng's, go busto and repeat. I lost about $1400 over approx 2750 games, nothing that hurt me financially obv but losing sucks. I had fun and got a little better.In 07 I started wanting to improve my game, I read a couple books and started reading forums. In late 07 I had my first decent cash and started cashing in 4.40 180 person sng's on a fairly reg basis. I stuck with those and got my sharkscope back up to break even over about 750 games. Over that span I cashed out a hundred or two here and there when I had a nice cash and thought i was really starting to be a winning player.About 2 weeks ago I was running pretty good, I had over 1k in my acct, I cashed out some and had $760 left. And since then I have just ran/played absolutely terrible. Right now as I type this I have $170 left in my account. Yes, I'm stuck $600 in about 2 weeks. And this is at 4.40's and an occasional $11 180 and I think I took a shot at one or two $22 180 sng's. maybe a few stakes. I did donk off about $100 on cash games two days ago out of frustration. So I guess what I'm askin is, where to go from here. I dont know if I am burnt out on 440's or what. I have been starting each day fresh and rested with a good attitude but seem to keep getting the same results. I am a huge nit and now I am not even rolled to play 440's. I want to start tomorrow fresh with a clear head and $170 br. What do you guys recommend. Link to post Share on other sites
fornicator1 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Author Share Posted June 6, 2008 ummm ur not broke? u have 170 in ur online br so clearly you dont live off that....how is that rock bottom?its rock bottom to me because I am trying to avoid going totally broke. Looking to make some changes to avoid that. Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 IMO,Drop down and play as low as you can... preserve the roll... 4.40 is prolly goodLook back when you were playing well and winning... What were you doing? Playing while rested, calm and confident probably. Since I assume poker is not your job, play for fun. Play while interested and there aren't other things you'd rather be doing.Continue to read books, forums, get a poker coach/mentor...Vairance can be a wench, but if you are a winning player you can grind it out and no matter if you're a winner/loser, you can always get better so take the necessary steps to become the best player you can be and GL Link to post Share on other sites
RabidTortuga 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Take a few days off. You're clearly tilting, as per donking off $100 in cash games. You think you start the day fresh and clear, but really, the first bad beat is going to start the spiral again.At least take the weekend off. Go do something else when you'd normally play poker, something fun and relaxing. Then, on Monday, start fresh.Maybe get back to some single table sit-n-go's for a while until you have the roll for the $4.40s again. It should also let you focus on good decision making and getting you back to the basics of winning poker. Link to post Share on other sites
potatoman 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Take a few days off. You're clearly tilting, as per donking off $100 in cash games. You think you start the day fresh and clear, but really, the first bad beat is going to start the spiral again.At least take the weekend off. Go do something else when you'd normally play poker, something fun and relaxing. Then, on Monday, start fresh.Maybe get back to some single table sit-n-go's for a while until you have the roll for the $4.40s again. It should also let you focus on good decision making and getting you back to the basics of winning poker. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 In addition to the above here are some sobering Sklansky numbers, based on 200 player tournies...close enough to 180s.If your average return is 2 buyins, your br for 95% confidence of not going broke is 55 buyins.If your average return is 1 1/2 buyins, your br for 95% confidence of not going broke is 133 buyins.If your average buyin during the down streak was $10 it is well within variance if you are around a 1 1/2 buyin player. At stakes that low variance is even higher than normal so those results could even be reasonable if your a 2 buyin player.You are in a situation where your "br" isnt really what you keep online, your other assets back that up, so Im not saying you are playing above your br at $4.40s, but you might want to start with a 100 buyins at whatever level your going to play and not touch it, even if you are up substantially. Remember, those 95% confidence bankrolls include situations where you win early and then take a dive.After 1000 tournies you should have a reasonable idea of your win rate and standard deviation and be able to determine a more accurate br for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Jariso13 1 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 If any one feels like flaming/ kicking a guy when I'm down thats cool do what you gotta do. If theres any one with some good advice I'm all ears as I feel like I have hit 'rock bottom'. This may be kinda long but i'll try to keep it as short as possible.First my poker background, I started playing in late 05 /early 06 and didnt have a clue. I played mostly sitn gos and some mtts and very few cash games, I had no clue about br mgmt, I would deposit $30, play $5 sng's, go busto and repeat. I lost about $1400 over approx 2750 games, nothing that hurt me financially obv but losing sucks. I had fun and got a little better.In 07 I started wanting to improve my game, I read a couple books and started reading forums. In late 07 I had my first decent cash and started cashing in 4.40 180 person sng's on a fairly reg basis. I stuck with those and got my sharkscope back up to break even over about 750 games. Over that span I cashed out a hundred or two here and there when I had a nice cash and thought i was really starting to be a winning player.About 2 weeks ago I was running pretty good, I had over 1k in my acct, I cashed out some and had $760 left. And since then I have just ran/played absolutely terrible. Right now as I type this I have $170 left in my account. Yes, I'm stuck $600 in about 2 weeks. And this is at 4.40's and an occasional $11 180 and I think I took a shot at one or two $22 180 sng's. maybe a few stakes. I did donk off about $100 on cash games two days ago out of frustration. So I guess what I'm askin is, where to go from here. I dont know if I am burnt out on 440's or what. I have been starting each day fresh and rested with a good attitude but seem to keep getting the same results. I am a huge nit and now I am not even rolled to play 440's. I want to start tomorrow fresh with a clear head and $170 br. What do you guys recommend.I think the answer to this one is pretty obvious. If you lost 600 in $4.40s over 2 weeks you are playing way too much. I know its tough but take a few days off, refocus, and you will be fine. Reread a few sections of your poker books too before you start playing again just to get in the proper mindset. Ive found that doing so never hurts. Link to post Share on other sites
shahmat 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I'd stay stick to the lower ones till you can get your confidence back up. Also analyze your hands after you finish playing, decide where/if you made mistakes and how to correct them. It really helps to have someone to discuss it with, can dramatically improve your game and give you a different perspective. Didn't read if you're multi tabling or not but if so try and drop some tables and focus more on decisions. Link to post Share on other sites
fckthis 0 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 ummm, stop trying to play MTTs and expect to win a bunch. More players, more variance, more swings, bigger bankroll.My suggestion is, play 9max Sngs, 6.50s to start with and go from there. Turbo of course, unless you wanna actually player postflop....but who wants to do that. You could even play some 18mans, or 45mans at that level. The comp is weak, and you have a decent sized roll. If you wanna go for broke ( cuz its obv more fun that way), play 16 9max turbos, and play a general strat of super tight for the first 4 rounds, and looser as it goes on (not 2-7 loose), and playing a robotic push/fold style after u have <10bbs. Link to post Share on other sites
fornicator1 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Author Share Posted June 7, 2008 In addition to the above here are some sobering Sklansky numbers, based on 200 player tournies...close enough to 180s.If your average return is 2 buyins, your br for 95% confidence of not going broke is 55 buyins.If your average return is 1 1/2 buyins, your br for 95% confidence of not going broke is 133 buyins.If your average buyin during the down streak was $10 it is well within variance if you are around a 1 1/2 buyin player. At stakes that low variance is even higher than normal so those results could even be reasonable if your a 2 buyin player.You are in a situation where your "br" isnt really what you keep online, your other assets back that up, so Im not saying you are playing above your br at $4.40s, but you might want to start with a 100 buyins at whatever level your going to play and not touch it, even if you are up substantially. Remember, those 95% confidence bankrolls include situations where you win early and then take a dive.After 1000 tournies you should have a reasonable idea of your win rate and standard deviation and be able to determine a more accurate br for you.Great info thanks for taking the time to post that. Is that br info from Small Stakes Hold'em? I am going to the library tomorrow and plan on checking out a couple books, so which ones will be most helpful in my situation? i have read some books but its been a while and I cant even remember which ones I read really. I'm pretty sure I read SuperSystem2 but would read it again if you guys suggest it. I basically want to start with a clean slate/ fresh head and a $170 br. With that being said, 4.40 180 sng's are not a good choice despite my past success. With a little bad variance I could easily go busto doing that. Right now I'm leaning towards grinding out some micro cash games. Is $170 way to short to play 10NL? I would hope that I am good enough to beat 10NL long term but as we all know variance kills bankrolls. .01/.02 would be a real grind but if im definitely under rolled for .05/.10 then i would consider it.I am also considering grinding some fixed limit, but I want to just decide what I'm going to rebuild with and stick to it. Thanks again for all your advice and I'm looking forward to hearing more advice, and spending more time in strat as I rebuild. Link to post Share on other sites
hank213 1,823 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Drop down Look back when you were playing well and winning... What were you doing? Playing while rested, calm and confident probably. Continue to read books, forums, get a poker coach/mentor...Vairance can be a wenchYes.Take a few days off. You're clearly tilting, as per donking off $100 in cash games. You think you start the day fresh and clear, but really, the first bad beat is going to start the spiral again. Or your confidence is shaken and instead of going into a game thinking "I'm gonna take this down." You may start thinking things like:"I think I can do this." "I hope I can take this down." maybe not even that concrete but I know from experience shaken confidence can lead to some very clouded thought processes during action.At least take the weekend off. Go do something else when you'd normally play poker, something fun and relaxing. Then, on Monday, start fresh.Maybe get back to some single table sit-n-go's for a while until you have the roll for the $4.40s again. It should also let you focus on good decision making and getting you back to the basics of winning poker.I agree with this stuff and would like to offer a plan:Step down to some cheapy sit n gos or whatever and focus on playing good, fundamentally solid poker. Forget fancy plays, avoid results oriented thinking and don't worry about ROI for a couple buy ins. Just focus on playing good poker. Get some confidence back and remind yourself that you know how to play (and more importantly think about) the game. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Great info thanks for taking the time to post that. Is that br info from Small Stakes Hold'em? I am going to the library tomorrow and plan on checking out a couple books, so which ones will be most helpful in my situation? i have read some books but its been a while and I cant even remember which ones I read really. I'm pretty sure I read SuperSystem2 but would read it again if you guys suggest it. I basically want to start with a clean slate/ fresh head and a $170 br. With that being said, 4.40 180 sng's are not a good choice despite my past success. With a little bad variance I could easily go busto doing that. Right now I'm leaning towards grinding out some micro cash games. Is $170 way to short to play 10NL? I would hope that I am good enough to beat 10NL long term but as we all know variance kills bankrolls. .01/.02 would be a real grind but if im definitely under rolled for .05/.10 then i would consider it.I am also considering grinding some fixed limit, but I want to just decide what I'm going to rebuild with and stick to it. Thanks again for all your advice and I'm looking forward to hearing more advice, and spending more time in strat as I rebuild.Strategy books or general poker? For the latter Poker Gaming and Life/Sklansky and Gambling Theory and Other Topics/Malmuth. Strategy books really depends on what youve read already. Link to post Share on other sites
Jariso13 1 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 I am finding the Harrington cash game books to be pretty good. His tourney books were very good and its not hard to beat micro players using his strategies. NL Theory and Practice by that psycho Slanskey is also a pretty good read, even though I found it immensely boring. Link to post Share on other sites
fornicator1 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Author Share Posted June 7, 2008 Strategy books or general poker? For the latter Poker Gaming and Life/Sklansky and Gambling Theory and Other Topics/Malmuth. Strategy books really depends on what youve read already. I was trying to remember what I have read so I can figure out what books to check out tomorrow, but I can't. It obviously didnt sink in well enough, so for purposes of me getting the best advice out of this thread, lets just say I havent read any books. Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 I was trying to remember what I have read so I can figure out what books to check out tomorrow, but I can't. It obviously didnt sink in well enough, so for purposes of me getting the best advice out of this thread, lets just say I havent read any books.If youre going to focus on cash then Harringtons cash books. If youre going to focus on Sit n Gos and can get a cheap copy of Moshman's book go for it...otherwise read STT stickies and forum. Moshman isnt much better than a compilation of that advice. Link to post Share on other sites
fornicator1 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Author Share Posted June 7, 2008 This seems to happen to me often. Is this just unlucky/variance or do i get away from it?Flopped top pair and bet a little less than the pot.Sorry I will start posting hands in the NL cash game section from now on.PokerStars Game #17965449847: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/06/06 - 21:30:21 (ET)Table 'Robelmonte II' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: PIKPOKIT ($2.15 in chips) Seat 2: deigojd ($18.20 in chips) Seat 3: gong4da ($12 in chips) Seat 4: ChetVilo ($5.90 in chips) Seat 5: WowThatsBS ($12.05 in chips) Seat 6: oror ($13.90 in chips) Seat 7: ekdudeman ($3.85 in chips) Seat 8: wildman11a ($5.70 in chips) Seat 9: fornicator1 ($4.60 in chips) fornicator1: posts small blind $0.05PIKPOKIT: posts big blind $0.10*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to fornicator1 [Kc As]deigojd: folds gong4da: folds ChetVilo: calls $0.10WowThatsBS: folds oror: folds ekdudeman: folds wildman11a: folds fornicator1: raises $0.40 to $0.50PIKPOKIT: calls $0.40ChetVilo: calls $0.40*** FLOP *** [9s Jc Ad]fornicator1: bets $1.40PIKPOKIT: raises $0.25 to $1.65 and is all-inChetVilo: folds fornicator1: calls $0.25*** TURN *** [9s Jc Ad] [7s]*** RIVER *** [9s Jc Ad 7s] [Js]*** SHOW DOWN ***fornicator1: shows [Kc As] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)PIKPOKIT: shows [9d 9h] (a full house, Nines full of Jacks)PIKPOKIT collected $4.60 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $4.80 | Rake $0.20 Board [9s Jc Ad 7s Js]Seat 1: PIKPOKIT (big blind) showed [9d 9h] and won ($4.60) with a full house, Nines full of JacksSeat 2: deigojd folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: gong4da folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: ChetVilo folded on the FlopSeat 5: WowThatsBS folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: oror folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: ekdudeman folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: wildman11a (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: fornicator1 (small blind) showed [Kc As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks Link to post Share on other sites
bobbywithani 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 This seems to happen to me often. Is this just unlucky/variance or do i get away from it?Flopped top pair and bet a little less than the pot.Sorry I will start posting hands in the NL cash game section from now on.PokerStars Game #17965449847: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/06/06 - 21:30:21 (ET)Table 'Robelmonte II' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: PIKPOKIT ($2.15 in chips) Seat 2: deigojd ($18.20 in chips) Seat 3: gong4da ($12 in chips) Seat 4: ChetVilo ($5.90 in chips) Seat 5: WowThatsBS ($12.05 in chips) Seat 6: oror ($13.90 in chips) Seat 7: ekdudeman ($3.85 in chips) Seat 8: wildman11a ($5.70 in chips) Seat 9: fornicator1 ($4.60 in chips) fornicator1: posts small blind $0.05PIKPOKIT: posts big blind $0.10*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to fornicator1 [Kc As]deigojd: folds gong4da: folds ChetVilo: calls $0.10WowThatsBS: folds oror: folds ekdudeman: folds wildman11a: folds fornicator1: raises $0.40 to $0.50PIKPOKIT: calls $0.40ChetVilo: calls $0.40*** FLOP *** [9s Jc Ad]fornicator1: bets $1.40PIKPOKIT: raises $0.25 to $1.65 and is all-inChetVilo: folds fornicator1: calls $0.25*** TURN *** [9s Jc Ad] [7s]*** RIVER *** [9s Jc Ad 7s] [Js]*** SHOW DOWN ***fornicator1: shows [Kc As] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)PIKPOKIT: shows [9d 9h] (a full house, Nines full of Jacks)PIKPOKIT collected $4.60 from pot*** SUMMARY ***Total pot $4.80 | Rake $0.20 Board [9s Jc Ad 7s Js]Seat 1: PIKPOKIT (big blind) showed [9d 9h] and won ($4.60) with a full house, Nines full of JacksSeat 2: deigojd folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: gong4da folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: ChetVilo folded on the FlopSeat 5: WowThatsBS folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 6: oror folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: ekdudeman folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 8: wildman11a (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: fornicator1 (small blind) showed [Kc As] and lost with two pair, Aces and JacksNo way you are ever ever ever folding that hand. Ever. Link to post Share on other sites
David_Nicoson 1 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Take a break.Review your hands.Read a book.Start again when it sounds like fun. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 had $760 left. And since then I have just ran/played absolutely terrible. Right now as I type this I have $170 left in my account. Yes, I'm stuck $600 in about 2 weeks.come back when you lose that in a daynot kicking you when youre down, its just a bad variance swing.you're not at rock bottom, this happens to everyone. my AA flopped A88 and lost to 88 earlier today someone hitting a set on your AK is not the end of the worldreally, im not trying to be mean. this is part of poker. if you cant deal with it, maybe you shouldnt play, or atleast not take it so seriouslyjust now some guy pushed Q5 against my KK and hit a flushit happensthe best thing i do when im running badly is learn a new game and play that for a while. i got pretty decent at stud/8 and razz because i couldnt take losing to bullshit at holdem. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 At first, I thought this must have happened to you....Two small boats of exactly the same size and shape are secured. In one of them the victim was extended flat on his back, with his head, his hands and his feet all projecting over the sides. The second boat was then turned upside down and fitted over the first. In this way, the culprit's body was enclosed within the two boats while his feet, hands and head were left outside. Food was then offered, and in the event of it being refused, the victim was pricked or otherwise tormented until he complied with the request.The next step consisted of filling his mouth and smearing his face with a mixture of milk and honey. He was then exposed to the full glare of the sun. In a short time, flies and insects began to settle on his face. As the hours and then the days went by, the biting of the insects drove the prisoner to distraction. And meanwhile, within the cavity made by the boats, nature pursuing her course, the accumulated excrement stunk to heaven and became a mass of corruption. When death came, and the upper boat was removed, the flesh was found to be devoured and "swarms of noisome creatures preying upon and - as it were - growing to his inwards." thank goodness you're just down to 300BB for 25c/50c poker Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 [ ] rock bottom[ ] interesting story[x] disappointed readers Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 At first, I thought this must have happened to you....Two small boats of exactly the same size and shape are secured. In one of them the victim was extended flat on his back, with his head, his hands and his feet all projecting over the sides. The second boat was then turned upside down and fitted over the first. In this way, the culprit's body was enclosed within the two boats while his feet, hands and head were left outside. Food was then offered, and in the event of it being refused, the victim was pricked or otherwise tormented until he complied with the request.The next step consisted of filling his mouth and smearing his face with a mixture of milk and honey. He was then exposed to the full glare of the sun. In a short time, flies and insects began to settle on his face. As the hours and then the days went by, the biting of the insects drove the prisoner to distraction. And meanwhile, within the cavity made by the boats, nature pursuing her course, the accumulated excrement stunk to heaven and became a mass of corruption. When death came, and the upper boat was removed, the flesh was found to be devoured and "swarms of noisome creatures preying upon and - as it were - growing to his inwards." thank goodness you're just down to 300BB for 25c/50c pokerObviously made my "disappointed" post before reading this. A+++.I still don't quite get how he can simulatenously be exposed to the sun and have a top boat encasing his whole body though. Was he exposed to the sun just long enough for the insects to come and then covered back up again? Link to post Share on other sites
TravisG 0 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 Not to be personal or anything, but from what I've seen of your MTT play (including on my stake) - it's pretty bad. I guess you just have to get better. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted June 7, 2008 Share Posted June 7, 2008 I still don't quite get how he can simulatenously be exposed to the sun and have a top boat encasing his whole body though. Was he exposed to the sun just long enough for the insects to come and then covered back up again?I picture cuts are made in the top of the lower boat to allow for the arms, feet, and head to extend.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted June 8, 2008 Share Posted June 8, 2008 I picture cuts are made in the top of the lower boat to allow for the arms, feet, and head to extend.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism somehow, this does not surprise me Link to post Share on other sites
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