When To Make An Isolation Play

[Hammered Burt 0]

Playing a small $$ re-buy tourney on Stars. First place money was roughly 6K. Tourney payed about 500 players, at this point I think there were approx. 600 left We had been playing approx. 2 hours 45 minutes. Average chips were around 17-18K, I had approx. 25K. Villian had me covered with approx. 30K.I had been playing pretty much perfect for 2 hours 45 minutes. I had been playing very tight, mostly chipping up w/out showing down too many hands, bluffing when it was right to bluff, folding when it was right to fold and V-betting when it was right to V-bet... Then this hand came up...Blinds 300/600 75 anteUTG shoves for approx. 5500, UTG+2 flat-calls (and he does this pretty quickly - he doesn't take his time bank, he pretty much snap calls). It folds to me on button w/ 9 9 . I'm fairly sure UTG is shoving w/ a pretty wide range here. I feel he's most-likely he's got a hand like KJ, KQ. A7, A8, A9, AT. He could also have a pair, but I think it's more likely 2 big cards. UTG+2 is a bigger problem. He's got me covered and his call is troubling. I took my time and went through his range, and what it would take for him to call me if I shoved. I feel his range is much, much smaller. I'm pretty sure he's flatting w/ most pairs (55, 66, 77, 88, TT and AA), and pretty sure he's re-raising JJ, QQ, KK, AK and AQ. I don't think he flats w/ KQ or AJ type hands. There's an outside chance he's got some kind of suited Ace, but I think it's most likely a small/medium pair. I can take a flop and re-evaluate. I'll be in position, but what happens if flop comes A-high or something like QJ4 and villain leads out??? I guess I'll still have around average chips, but I feel like I'm giving up on some value here.I don't think I can fold - it's just too weak.I can shove here and most-likely get Heads Up w/ UTG who I think I'm flipping with and there's some dead money in the pot. I think his shove-calling range is even smaller than his flatting range. He'd even have a tough time calling w/ hands like TT and JJ b/c even though it's not his tourney life, it basically leaves him pretty well crippled. The flip-side, if I get called I'm likely in pretty bad shape and in danger of hitting the rail.BTW, I don't care about coasting into the money. If I double up I've got top-10 type chips and have a better chance to go deep. If Villain folds and I win I've got twice-average chips, if Villain folds and I lose I've still got average chips...What's our play - call or shove???

[jmbreslin 0]

Calling doesn't make sense at all. If the pot is roughly 13000 and it's 5500 to you, you'd be calling with less than 3:1 to play 99 for set value against 2 villains? I think this is a push or fold situation. But I disagree that folding is just too weak here. UTG+2 has flat-called a shove for about 6BB and almost 20% of his stack. I can't see him doing this with many pairs below your 99. To put him on a range, ask yourself this question: why would he not isolate the shortie with a hand that is worth calling his push? In other words, in what situations would a reasonable player (since you have no read to tell you otherwise) flat call in his spot rather than reraising to isolate? Either he thinks the push is large enough to drive out any callers so he has no reason to risk more chips with an isolation reraise, in which case his range could be on the wider side, or perhaps he has a hand with enough value that he's not scared of someone pulling a squeeze on him. Maybe he's even trying to entice someone to come over the top.I actually find his call a bit of a red flag. He's in bad position and has called off almost 20% of his stack. He obviously has a good enough hand to make the call to begin with and he's not worried about needing to isolate the shortie himself. This just stinks of a trap to me...

[Sheiky 0]

Tough spot + Interesting threadI'll get back to you when I have the slightest clue what the best play is!

[JoeyFinngars 0]

I would prefer folding in this spot since you currently don't have any chips invested and it is a tough decision. The original raiser could have a hand like KQ suited or something similar since his range is wide, the problem lies with the caller like you stated. He has a smaller range of hands being played here and if he doesn't have you beat your most likely flipping coins against two opponents.Your best case scenario is the raiser having Ax and the caller having 44-88 ( which I feel is unlikely since I could see him raising with 6's and up to also isolate the short stack). Chances are he has a pair bigger than yours or AK, AQ suited and your in a marginal spot when the chips go in.I feel your best option at this point is to fold the nines and look for another short stack to pick on later. You are either marginally ahead or very far behind against the two players. The fact that UTG+2 just flatted the raise makes his hand seem even stronger and unless you have noticed him do this a number of times with mediocre holdings against short stacks, folding your nines is the only +ev play I can see. You have enough of a stack to mess around against the shorties at your table and there is no need potentially going broke against two opponents.

[copernicus 0]

Villain didnt isolate. Why not? He's strong enough to call but not strong enough to commit all his chips, or hes very strong and trying to encourage action?Since this is coming from EP and even big pairs wouldnt relish 2 or more callers I would read it to be a big Ace or middling pairs. I think youve got plenty of equity to push here. Youre going to be facing counterfeited overcards and underpairs a decent amount of the time.If villain were in later position and more likely to try and encourage another call I would probably fold.

[biff_goods 0]

i played a hand like this last night where I was the villain and I just called with KK with 1 person left to try and encourage action. If that helps you out any....

[Sheiky 0]

Villain didnt isolate. Why not? He's strong enough to call but not strong enough to commit all his chips, or hes very strong and trying to encourage action?Since this is coming from EP and even big pairs wouldnt relish 2 or more callers I would read it to be a big Ace or middling pairs. I think youve got plenty of equity to push here. Youre going to be facing counterfeited overcards and underpairs a decent amount of the time.If villain were in later position and more likely to try and encourage another call I would probably fold.

I think this is the opposite way round, if the origanal shover was the CO and the caller was the button, i think this'd be a shove.

[jmbreslin 0]

I think the chances of villain holding a big pair are much higher than a small pair here. If I'm UTG+2 holding something like 77 and UTG shoves, there is no way in hell I'm flat-calling for almost 20% of my stack, unless the table has been playing so tightly that I feel confident nobody will call behind. Otherwise I'm reraising to isolate or folding. I'm probably also isolating with a big pair, but I would consider flat-calling in the hopes that someone else might try a squeeze play.

[Hammered Burt 0]

In other words, in what situations would a reasonable player (since you have no read to tell you otherwise) flat call in his spot rather than reraising to isolate?

One thing I should add, this particular villain had shown the ability to flat a lot of raises and take flops. During the re-buy period he was doing it w/ any 2 cards in an effort to bust people. We were well past the re-buy period, but he had still flatted more raises than average. He seemed to mostly do it in position or from the blinds, so his flatting from UTG+2 was a little different, but he had been flatting a lot.My original take was Villain didn't give UTG pusher much credit either and thought he was ahead of him, but didn't want to risk more chips. At this stage shoving 5.5K was a pretty substantial portion of most peoples' stacks. As I said average was around 17 or 18K. There were probably only 2 or 3 of us at the table w/ more than 20K, everyone else was pretty much below average.

[BertTheKid 0]

It would also be important to know how many times you rebuyed.If you didnt rebuy or add-on at all, cause you're way before chip average, i would fold, cause you probably get ten times your money if you hit the money. i know you have to go for 1st place, but ten times your buy-in, just to get into the money, is a lot.If you rebuyed a lot of times, the 500st place just isnt worth it, so you really must be going for 1st-9th place here.please correct me if i'm wrong.

[copernicus 0]

It would also be important to know how many times you rebuyed.If you didnt rebuy or add-on at all, cause you're way before chip average, i would fold, cause you probably get ten times your money if you hit the money. i know you have to go for 1st place, but ten times your buy-in, just to get into the money, is a lot.If you rebuyed a lot of times, the 500st place just isnt worth it, so you really must be going for 1st-9th place here.please correct me if i'm wrong.

Youre wrong. Whatever investment the was, its a sunk cost. All that is relevant is maximizing the expectation for return (asumming youre not playing out of your bankroll to start with).

[copernicus 0]

I think this is the opposite way round, if the origanal shover was the CO and the caller was the button, i think this'd be a shove.

Apples and oranges. My post was about an EP shove followed by another EP call vs a LP call. When the shove comes in late position everything changes, and a squeeze play becomes much more viable.

[Sheiky 0]

Apples and oranges. My post was about an EP shove followed by another EP call vs a LP call. When the shove comes in late position everything changes, and a squeeze play becomes much more viable.

But still, UTG+1 calling UTG's shove has a tighter range than button calling UTG's shove.

[jmbreslin 0]

But still, UTG+1 calling UTG's shove has a tighter range than button calling UTG's shove.

I agree, which is why I'm giving him credit for a better hand than others are in this situation. Although the fact that this player has a history of flatting raises throughout the tourney is very relevant. Still, even the OP admits that the flat from EP is unusual for this player. I'm sticking with my initial assessment: this stinks of a trap.

[Sheiky 0]

Still, even the OP admits that the flat from EP is unusual for this player. I'm sticking with my initial assessment: this stinks of a trap.

I agree, I think here it's often going to be him either with a kind of junky hand he's folding to a shove quite easily or a slowplayed hand that he's snap calling with

[potatoman 0]

I fold and move on to the next hand. I'm in a cheap rebuy tournament with a lot of chips playing against a bunch a people dying to go broke with second pair and gut shot str8 draws. I don't need to get involved here and risk going broke.I'll need QQ+ to get interested in playing this hand at all.If I did decide to play here though, I am shoving.Re: number of buyins. Myself personally, whether I'm in for 4 or 14 buyins, I find it's best just to play my best game possible and not take any extra risks whether I need a final table to make money or not. I'm still losing less the higher up the pay ladder I go. If you remain patient and wait for good spots, I find it's amazing how often they come up in low limit rebuy tournaments, as long as you scored enough chips during the rebuy period.

[Cappy37 0]

Re: number of buyins. Myself personally, whether I'm in for 4 or 14 buyins, I find it's best just to play my best game possible and not take any extra risks whether I need a final table to make money or not. I'm still losing less the higher up the pay ladder I go. If you remain patient and wait for good spots, I find it's amazing how often they come up in low limit rebuy tournaments, as long as you scored enough chips during the rebuy period.

I really <3 all this, especially the bolded part.

[Poker Addict 0]

I fold this hand. Not sure if the numbers are right. But I just think there are better spots to get my money in. I think I agree with Coper and Sheiky, although I read it quickly. If I was the button and it was the CO that flat called I think shoving over is good. But two EP players in the pot, I don't like the mid pp anymore.

[Berwatchey 0]

I think youve got plenty of equity to push here. Youre going to be facing counterfeited overcards and underpairs a decent amount of the time.

i'd say it's possible that he is indeed ahead...but i agree with jmbreslin. it smells like a big hand, either way why play solid throughout this tourney and build a stack to donk it off here where we arent sure we are substantially ahead. he has 40 big blinds... i just dont see the value in risking that huge of a stack with all that manuver room on a coin flip at best....

[copernicus 0]

But still, UTG+1 calling UTG's shove has a tighter range than button calling UTG's shove.

There we disagree. A strong hand in early position will frequently isolate. Since he didnt isolate and only called that makes it less likely that he has a strong hand. Law of restricted choice (or Bayes Theorem if youre not a bridge player). The strong hand in later position will isolate less frequently to encourage action.

[Sheiky 0]

There we disagree. A strong hand in early position will frequently isolate. Since he didnt isolate and only called that makes it less likely that he has a strong hand. Law of restricted choice (or Bayes Theorem if youre not a bridge player). The strong hand in later position will isolate less frequently to encourage action.

Bridge bores the hell outta me, I tried to get interested in it but found the game as boring as hell, though i'm assuming that given how popular it is there's more strategical thinking that goes on that I wasn't aware of, though i am pretty familliar with Bayes theorem.I dis agree that a 'strong' hand will frequently isolate, UTG's shove was more than enough to discourage people entering the pot behind him, if UTG shoved 3BBs i would agree with you because I think even trappy players are more likely to min raise AA in that spot or something, but as UTG's shove is big enough I think it's more than reasonable to expect someone to call with a really strong hand hoping to entice action behind him, given the pot size already and the stacks at the table, I think flatting with AA/KK/AK is probably even the optimal play here for UTG+1, if he shoves he folds out all the hands like 99 and TT or something dumb that people in heros position will be more likely to shove over if he just flats.In fact I don't see many hands that UTG+1 should be 'isolating' with here, lock hands like AA/KK are optimal to flat with, and re-raising with a hand like KQs is just a spew. Whereas in later position, the say if he was on the button and got folded to, he can now call with a wider range given that it's less likely that the blinds can pick up a hand that's better than his.

[copernicus 0]

In fact I don't see many hands that UTG+1 should be 'isolating' with here, lock hands like AA/KK are optimal to flat with, and re-raising with a hand like KQs is just a spew.

Depends on your definition of optimal...flatting AA/KK may increase your EV but they also put you at much bigger risk of getting cracked with 2 or 3 villains, which is the reason you isolate from early position. In a cash game that may be a tolerable risk, in a tournament I dont think it is and will isolate with those hands every time.

[Berwatchey 0]

In fact I don't see many hands that UTG+1 should be 'isolating' with here, lock hands like AA/KK are optimal to flat with, and re-raising with a hand like KQs is just a spew. Whereas in later position, the say if he was on the button and got folded to, he can now call with a wider range given that it's less likely that the blinds can pick up a hand that's better than his.

i tend to agree with sheiky here, him calling that kind of bet just doesnt seem weak to me. the hands we would have the best chance of crushing (hands less than 88) seem pretty weak to be calling there. i wouldnt even include under pairs in villians range at this point. with that the best we could hope for is a q with the first shover having one of his overs. any other cards by villian is just spew and i dont think its worth 40 BB's to find out. your gonna get to see villians cards guarnteed, if he really did flat with 77 or something like that you will know regardless of weather you risk your stack. if he did it once you will KNOW he is likely to make the same mistake again. and with 40 BB's youve got plenty of time to remove his chips later.

Depends on your definition of optimal...flatting AA/KK may increase your EV but they also put you at much bigger risk of getting cracked with 2 or 3 villains, which is the reason you isolate from early position. In a cash game that may be a tolerable risk, in a tournament I dont think it is and will isolate with those hands every time.

i would tend to agree but i can think of a couple reasons villian would flat those hands.1. stack sizes. the first shovers push is plenty big enough(like 6 BB's) given that only 3 people at the table have really big stacks. theres every reason to believe that not alot of hands would be entering this pot. 2. theres deception value. sure i myself will raise to isolate with big pairs well over 65% of the time, but in spots like these its not always a bad idea to flat, and take the chance of getting all of someones chips when they decide to shove my flat with a hand like 99. especially given the size of the first shove which will keep out alot of marginal drawing hands because its so much of most of the other players stacks. in a way the first shove actually gives you a really good chance that the only hands that enter the pot after you flat are going to be hands that you really crush. 70:30 favorites or more...

[Sheiky 0]

Depends on your definition of optimal...flatting AA/KK may increase your EV but they also put you at much bigger risk of getting cracked with 2 or 3 villains, which is the reason you isolate from early position. In a cash game that may be a tolerable risk, in a tournament I dont think it is and will isolate with those hands every time.

You're a a slightly larger risk, but getting two/three villains to shove when you're holding AA in this situation is allways going to be the optimal result.

[Berwatchey 0]

You're a a slightly larger risk, but getting two/three villains to shove when you're holding AA in this situation is allways going to be the optimal result.

especially when you have the most chips at the table and will be elidgeable to win all side pots should larger stacks come in.