Aa Question (tourny)

[Azwethinkweiz 0]

Opp AA 85.3 73.4 63.9 55.9 49.2 43.6 38.8 34.7 31.1 With two opponents already all-in, your Aces hold approx. a 73.4 percent chance of winning in showdown. By letting a third party potentially decide to call, you drop from 73.4 vs 2 opponents to 63.9 vs. 3 opponents. And for the rare instance, you get the third party to call, any astute player isn't going to throw another chip at the pot unless he has AA crushed. It's implicit collusion. More players then not are going to check it down with you to try and take 2 guys out. To conclude, I just dont think the rare times you run into a nut job shoveling 55 or KJ after all this action and you just flat calling, make up for the 10 percent chance of victory you lose by letting a third player in the pot.http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm credit goes to Steve Brecher for this wonderful chart.

[chgocubs99 0]

This is going to be a long post. Like record length.About half way home fyiUntil it gets deleted. But until then I still think I hold the record

[no not baxter 0]

stopped reading about half way down page 1 but loooooool, op u serious? maybe your the one that doesnt udnerstand tournament poker, gtfo

[Vtlaxer09 4]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOLhow long have you been waiting to pull that one out of your bag of tricks?

[Dratj 0]

Welcome to FCP, OP.

[Gallo 1]

This is going to be a long post. Like record length.About half way home fyiUntil it gets deleted. But until then I still think I hold the record

fyp

[whatgreatis 0]

Maybe you could call and open farrell the flop? If we are considering flatting we might as well consider this.

[chrozzo 19]

Hm... AA facing action? There's a new question...There are like 202,837,281,882,001,448 threads on this - many of which make the decision a lot more difficult than it is in this instance.In this instance, it's an InstaShove. For more difficulty incidents, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, and so should you

WOWZA!!!

[DunkSB 0]

This immediately reminded me of the thread on 4 that Bonomo started. something about playing 37o all the way to the river on a completely ugly board. he justified it all the way as a joke and got half the board siding with him cause they were on his nuts. in the same vein, this must be a joke. all the reasons have been stated but the logic OP has posted for flatting is so flawed i lol everytime i think of the scenario. if i made that play (inviting a 4th player in by flatting) in my home game my friends would probably just take my chips off the table and throw me out for being suck a friggin' moron. but let me know what your sn is on FTP and Stars and i'll play with you.

[Xeno85 0]

wtf makes you so positive he's going to even call in the first place?OK HERE's WHAT WILL MAKE YOU THINK YOU ARE STUPID: (MODS /THREAD AFTER THIS POST)You are telegraphing your hand if u flat here. You 100% have AA.. any other hand you would want to iso out the cutoff.You're effectively risking a 23k stack... for 3700 extra chips... because you're only getting called postflop by a hand that beats you.I win. You lose. /Thread.

vtlaxer is right, flatting looks very suspicious. The CO will probably fold out any hand that doesn't hit the board hard if you flat, and there's more chance of getting him to call if you take a little bit of time, like it's a tough decision, then shove. I'm not good enough to give you his hand ranges he'd call a shove w/, but I am 99% sure you'll make more money out of the times CO calls when he puts you on AK and has a pair then when he flats, you shove the flop and he says to himself "well, you're never supposed to bet into an all-in sidepot unless you're for sure beating the all-in hands, so I must be behind" and folds the flop. tank, shove then insta-fistpump when CO calls w/ TT,JJ,etc.

[looshle 6]

Instashove.You are giving close to 6.8 - 1 including implied since you are never folding if you just call. It's obviously a mistake for them to call for a set value but you can easily give them a chance to make a much bigger mistake by getting it all in pre with shit like AK AQs JJ or TT.People will call with these hands bc people suck and dont wannt be pushed around by waht looks like an iso shove. They will fold AK and AQ on all flops that miss them as well as JJ and TT on KQx Kxx AKx Axx boards in which you will end up kicking yourself for not getting your last 9k in the middle preflop and paid off when you have two ****ing snappers./thread

[gfdsa146 0]

Maybe you could call and open farrell the flop? If we are considering flatting we might as well consider this.

Indeed, if you open-fold the flop, it will encourage further action from the two that are all-in already. Not only will it coax action out of the all-in players, players that are out of the hand will also jump into the pot and put in a sizable bet to make the all-in people fold. I mean, the pot is gigantic, how can the other players just sit around and watch that dead money go away to someone else.So the most advisible line here is to c/c preflop and open-fold the flop to encourage all of the other players in the tournament to join in this pot and get it all-in so you can get instant heads up with the winner for 2nd place money.

[DunkSB 0]

Indeed, if you open-fold the flop, it will encourage further action from the two that are all-in already. Not only will it coax action out of the all-in players, players that are out of the hand will also jump into the pot and put in a sizable bet to make the all-in people fold. I mean, the pot is gigantic, how can the other players just sit around and watch that dead money go away to someone else.So the most advisible line here is to c/c preflop and open-fold the flop to encourage all of the other players in the tournament to join in this pot and get it all-in so you can get instant heads up with the winner for 2nd place money.

POTD

[gfdsa146 0]

POTD

My first sign of recognition around here, I'm truly honored.

[wordy 0]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...794&hl=acesRefer to Hoosieralum's hand where he flats after two shorties both push. Obviously the hand is slightly different than the hypothetical, but I see some similarities. Is Hoosieralum not opening the pot enough of a difference to merit his flat calling to intice more action?

[chgocubs99 0]

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...794&hl=acesRefer to Hoosieralum's hand where he flats after two shorties both push. Obviously the hand is slightly different than the hypothetical, but I see some similarities. Is Hoosieralum not opening the pot enough of a difference to merit his flat calling to intice more action?

Is this a joke link? In that hand someone raised, someone called all in, and the action was on him. In your example you opened and two people raised. The positions are completely different. The only actual similarty is the fact that you both had aces. Want me to search for a random hand I had aces in a multiway pot and post it just for the hell of it? That's about what this link accomplishes.

[Mercury69 3]

ShipAfter reading the OP's other posts, I wanted to do my sloppy math on this (anyone got good figures?). Here goes:200 from SB400 from BB1200 from your raise1200 from CO flat2900 total (2700+200) from SB shove4900 total (4500+400) from BB shoveWe now have 10800 in the pot. Hero has 12800 behind. Let's say Hero shoves.We now have 23600 in pot after Hero shoves. CO Villain has you covered and it's about 9100 to call. CO is getting better than 2.5 to 1 preflop to call and the OP is saying you have to flat to get all CO's chips in the middle? You gotta be kidding me.If Hero shoves and CO does not call, it's a huge mistake, imo. Hero shove could easily be a much wider range than one might think and the shove could be perceived as an isolation shove with a less than premium hand.I repeat: Ship

[Acid_Knight 2]

If a new poster hypothetically asks a hypothetical question which happens to be dumb, do we (hypothetically)- try to explain it to him, even though he hypothetically appears not to grasp simple responses;- or do we hypothetically just say "ah, it's not worth it"?-----------------------------------------------Seriously, though, the answer is to make a string raise. "I call the bet... (waits for CO to call) and raise all in"

I LOL'd at this.Nobody EVER suggest the string raise as a good piece of strat advice. Well played sir!

[mx957 0]

I get it, let second best catch up first, then you put the chips in the middle and hope for a re-suck. Good strategy.

[Azwethinkweiz 0]

Opp AA 85.3 73.4 63.9 55.9 49.2 43.6 38.8 34.7 31.1 With two opponents already all-in, your Aces hold approx. a 73.4 percent chance of winning in showdown. By letting a third party potentially decide to call, you drop from 73.4 vs 2 opponents to 63.9 vs. 3 opponents. And for the rare instance, you get the third party to call, any astute player isn't going to throw another chip at the pot unless he has AA crushed. It's implicit collusion. More players then not are going to check it down with you to try and take 2 guys out. To conclude, I just dont think the rare times you run into a nut job shoveling 55 or KJ after all this action and you just flat calling, make up for the 10 percent chance of victory you lose by letting a third player in the pot.http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm credit goes to Steve Brecher for this wonderful chart.

[PMJackson21 0]

Instashove.You are giving close to 6.8 - 1 including implied since you are never folding if you just call. It's obviously a mistake for them to call for a set value but you can easily give them a chance to make a much bigger mistake by getting it all in pre with shit like AK AQs JJ or TT.People will call with these hands bc people suck and dont wannt be pushed around by waht looks like an iso shove. They will fold AK and AQ on all flops that miss them as well as JJ and TT on KQx Kxx AKx Axx boards in which you will end up kicking yourself for not getting your last 9k in the middle preflop and paid off when you have two ****ing snappers./thread

Wow, did it really take this long for someone to mention all the times the CO misses the flop and folds? That's most obvious reason I see for shoving; if he is bad enough to flat call that action in front of him w/ out a monster, he probably wouldn't fold to a shove. I'd think the # times he folds to a shove < the # times he flat calls and folds on the flop.This (OP) had to be a masterful level though.

[PMJackson21 0]

EDit: Oops, double post when I tried to edit the above one.I misremembered the action, so ignore the 'if he flat called that action in front of him'.I still think you get paid off more often with a shove then you do with a flat call, especially vs a typical MTT random player.

[Jam-Fly 8]

It's a push.There is 10.4k in the pot when it gets to youYou push in 12k. 22.4k in pot, C/O is getting about 2-1 on his money. He calls or folds.You flat call. C/O will either call or push. If C/O pushes, he would have called your push (He's not pushing to get you to fold, coz he knows you'll call). So you gain nothing here.If he calls, you have the potential to win an extra 3.7k. If he folds, he folds.So the question is, is it worth letting one extra hand draw at a ~22k pot, in order to win an extra 3.7k (we agree your pushing any flop)? Your basically offering 6-1 on his money. After the flop, will his hand be better than yours every 1 time in 7? Yes it will.Push

[theabyss 0]

Ok, well first of all, I never said anywhere explicitly that going all-in PF was wrong. I just dont think it is optimal.I dont mean to put focus on "flat calling" here. What I wish to focus on in this situation is the fact that you definately should want the 4th player in this pot - however possible.If you shove all in and he calls this is good. If you flat call and he shoves and you call this is good. If you min-raise and he calls this is good. If you shove and he folds this is not ideal.Say you do shove and the CO folds. [Odds calculated below with pokerstove: AA v xRandom hands involved in Pot]Your AA holds a 70.7% chance of winning against two random hands.The pot here is 2,900 + 4,900 + 4,900 + 1,200 = 13,900.This is a solid option no doubt.But, on the other hand, lets say you get the CO in the hand and all the chips go in (whether you manage this preflop or on the flop)Main Pot = 2,900 +4,900 + 4,900 + 4,900 = 17,600Side Pot = 9,100 + 9,100 = 18, 200Your AA holds a 61% chance now of winning the main pot. I imagine this is where all of the donkeyviews of me are coming from. Inviting the 4th player in drastically reduces your chance of winning the pot by nearly 10%. But, look at what it does for you in terms of the side pot. Your AA has an 85% chance of winning the larger side pot.I agree that flat calling may be suspect because it forces you to make a bet on the flop on a potentially worrisome board so ya, if you know your opponent in the CO well enough to know he will call your shove then by all means do so. But if he is new to the table, extremely tight or unpredictable then I feel you gotta do whatever it takes to get him involved here - the edge your holding preflop with AA here is too large to not take advantage of this moment.

[PMJackson21 0]

If you shove all in and he calls this is good. If you flat call and he shoves and you call this is good. If you min-raise and he calls this is good. If you shove and he folds this is not ideal.

What you seem to be ignoring, is that regardless what action you take, just the fact that you are in there should let the CO know that you have a strong hand. Out of the 3 options (ignoring fold obv), shoving all in will look the most suspect to a majority of MTT players. Flat calling looks like you want to CO in the hand, re-raising (but not shoving) will leave you with little chips and again, most players will see you as committed so there is no reason not to just shove instead. As a complete nit myself (you gave the example that a nit would fold to a shove), I am 10x as likely to pay off a shove there then a flat call.So unless you are up against one of those rare donks who will call pretty much anything pre flop, but gives a lot of respect to all in bets, shoving is the optimal play because it gives you the best chance of being paid off vs your typical MTT player. By flat calling you are giving away the strength of your hand to a good deal of players, and ultimately giving up value in the long run. I don't want the extra 3700 or whatever from the CO, I want to double up, and I think shoving is the optimal way to do this.