theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Hi guys, i've thrown this question around to friends and in other forums because I want to get different views on it. It's a hypothetical situation so the numbers are vague and don't need to be specific.Here is how it goes:_______________________________________________You are in a tourny.You have ~14,000 chips and are UTG with AA.The blinds are 200-400.You raise 3x the bb to 1200. The next few players fold and the cutoff just calls.The button folds.SB goes all in for 2900.BB also shoves all in for 4900.The next player to act is you with only one left behind (the cutoff who called your raise). He has you covered.What do you do?________________________________________________________________________Before i hit the "post topic" button, let me add something.It's not as simple as it may first seem to be. It's very situational.I think the best thing to do is call. Consider the options carefully.thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 I forgot to mention - the CutOff spot has you covered by a couple thousand chips. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 I go all in...BBFITDS? Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Wow, its not about the first hand of the WSOP! Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 OMG shove!i cordially disagree Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 i cordially disagreeBecause you lost? Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Hm... AA facing action? There's a new question...There are like 202,837,281,882,001,448 threads on this - many of which make the decision a lot more difficult than it is in this instance.In this instance, it's an InstaShove. For more difficulty incidents, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, and so should you Link to post Share on other sites
UCFrizzo 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 insta-shove, imo Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Also, lol at flatting. Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 what does "BBFITDS" mean? Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Wow, its not about the first hand of the WSOP!I was thinking it was going to be that. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 i cordially disagreeWhat to you do thenBBFITDS = Bad Beat Forum Is Down the Street. Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 No, i did not "lose" because this never happened. Do you know what "hypothetical" means?Does anyone in here have any tournament poker sense? Some one must.______________You see, i asked this particular question for a reason.this is not really a "trick" question but it is close. It requires more than just basic thinking that goes with cut n dry poker decisions.This is the essence of situational tournament poker.You have two guys all in already who you will undoubtably be contesting when the board is complete because there is no way you are going to fold to either of their all in bets - simple.The thing here though is that you still have one player left to act behind you who, at this point, you are 100% in the lead or at worst tied (if he also has AA).Since the main pot is not going to have any betting from here on out you must think that now you are re-starting the hand against 1 opponent. You are encouraging anyone to participate in a hand against you when you hold AA and you are guaranteed no other competition.Lets say you do go all in and manage to get the Cutoff caller to fold. You now have the same scenario you are destined to have anyway -- a 3way battle for a stagnant pot with all cards face up. Thats not bad but its not your best option. If you lose this pot there is nothing u can do about it. Thats the way the cards were destined to fall.BUT.....if you bring in this 4th player into the mix, you have a chance to play basically a second hand heads up and AA is a monster heads up as we all know.So, do you guys wanna change your insta-shove opinion or do you see any fault in my analysis??? Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 PokerStars Game #17209469149: Tournament #87210271, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/05/04 - 22:31:57 (ET)Table '87210271 7' 9-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: JjHr55 (220 in chips) Seat 2: PWBig Stacks (1145 in chips) Seat 3: JJJimbo (1435 in chips) is sitting outSeat 4: anthony040 (3625 in chips) Seat 5: blitzburg86 (1675 in chips) Seat 6: rej56 (600 in chips) Seat 7: lerany (4985 in chips) Seat 8: Knollie919 (1600 in chips) Seat 9: GalloFX (2750 in chips) rej56: posts small blind 15lerany: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to GalloFX [Ad Ac]Knollie919: folds GalloFX said, "runner runneraments lol"Knollie919 said, "can't not push there"GalloFX: raises 60 to 90JjHr55: raises 130 to 220 and is all-inPWBig Stacks: calls 220JJJimbo: folds anthony040: folds blitzburg86: calls 220rej56: raises 380 to 600 and is all-inlerany: folds GalloFX: raises 2150 to 2750 and is all-inPWBig Stacks: calls 925 and is all-inblitzburg86: calls 1455 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [7s Tc 6s]*** TURN *** [7s Tc 6s] [Kc]*** RIVER *** [7s Tc 6s Kc] [9c]*** SHOW DOWN ***GalloFX: shows [Ad Ac] (a pair of Aces)blitzburg86: shows [8h 8d] (a straight, Six to Ten)blitzburg86 collected 1060 from side pot-3 PWBig Stacks: shows [8s As] (a straight, Six to Ten)PWBig Stacks collected 818 from side pot-2 blitzburg86 collected 817 from side pot-2 rej56: shows [Th Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)PWBig Stacks collected 760 from side pot-1 blitzburg86 collected 760 from side pot-1 JjHr55: shows [4s Ah] (high card Ace)PWBig Stacks collected 565 from main potblitzburg86 collected 565 from main potGalloFX said, "loooooooooool"*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 5345 Main pot 1130. Side pot-1 1520. Side pot-2 1635. Side pot-3 1060. | Rake 0 Board [7s Tc 6s Kc 9c]Seat 1: JjHr55 showed [4s Ah] and lost with high card AceSeat 2: PWBig Stacks showed [8s As] and won (2143) with a straight, Six to TenSeat 3: JJJimbo folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: anthony040 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: blitzburg86 (button) showed [8h 8d] and won (3202) with a straight, Six to TenSeat 6: rej56 (small blind) showed [Th Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and TensSeat 7: lerany (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 8: Knollie919 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: GalloFX showed [Ad Ac] and lost with a pair of AcesI should know better than to accept allin withtouth to see teh floop. Link to post Share on other sites
uncooper 1 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 Limp preflop, ldo. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 "You have two guys all in already who you will undoubtably be contesting when the board is complete because there is no way you are going to fold to either of their all in bets - simple."LOL"So, do you guys wanna change your insta-shove opinion or do you see any fault in my analysis???"Noedit: actually yea you comletely changed my mind. I flat here all day now. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 LOCK IT UP Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 PokerStars Game #17209469149: Tournament #87210271, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/05/04 - 22:31:57 (ET)Table '87210271 7' 9-max Seat #5 is the buttonSeat 1: JjHr55 (220 in chips) Seat 2: PWBig Stacks (1145 in chips) Seat 3: JJJimbo (1435 in chips) is sitting outSeat 4: anthony040 (3625 in chips) Seat 5: blitzburg86 (1675 in chips) Seat 6: rej56 (600 in chips) Seat 7: lerany (4985 in chips) Seat 8: Knollie919 (1600 in chips) Seat 9: GalloFX (2750 in chips) rej56: posts small blind 15lerany: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to GalloFX [Ad Ac]Knollie919: folds GalloFX said, "runner runneraments lol"Knollie919 said, "can't not push there"GalloFX: raises 60 to 90JjHr55: raises 130 to 220 and is all-inPWBig Stacks: calls 220JJJimbo: folds anthony040: folds blitzburg86: calls 220rej56: raises 380 to 600 and is all-inlerany: folds GalloFX: raises 2150 to 2750 and is all-inPWBig Stacks: calls 925 and is all-inblitzburg86: calls 1455 and is all-in*** FLOP *** [7s Tc 6s]*** TURN *** [7s Tc 6s] [Kc]*** RIVER *** [7s Tc 6s Kc] [9c]*** SHOW DOWN ***GalloFX: shows [Ad Ac] (a pair of Aces)blitzburg86: shows [8h 8d] (a straight, Six to Ten)blitzburg86 collected 1060 from side pot-3 PWBig Stacks: shows [8s As] (a straight, Six to Ten)PWBig Stacks collected 818 from side pot-2 blitzburg86 collected 817 from side pot-2 rej56: shows [Th Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)PWBig Stacks collected 760 from side pot-1 blitzburg86 collected 760 from side pot-1 JjHr55: shows [4s Ah] (high card Ace)PWBig Stacks collected 565 from main potblitzburg86 collected 565 from main potGalloFX said, "loooooooooool"*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 5345 Main pot 1130. Side pot-1 1520. Side pot-2 1635. Side pot-3 1060. | Rake 0 Board [7s Tc 6s Kc 9c]Seat 1: JjHr55 showed [4s Ah] and lost with high card AceSeat 2: PWBig Stacks showed [8s As] and won (2143) with a straight, Six to TenSeat 3: JJJimbo folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 4: anthony040 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 5: blitzburg86 (button) showed [8h 8d] and won (3202) with a straight, Six to TenSeat 6: rej56 (small blind) showed [Th Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and TensSeat 7: lerany (big blind) folded before FlopSeat 8: Knollie919 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 9: GalloFX showed [Ad Ac] and lost with a pair of AcesI should know better than to accept allin withtouth to see teh floop.For real? Awesome! Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 essentially, with this particular situation, you have the opportunity to have two separate contested hands with AA rather than just 1.by bringing in the cutoff, it is like you are hedging your initial investment.Now you see?If you get the cutoff to get his chips in and you beat him you guarantee ~10,000 chips even if you LOSE the main pot.still an INSTASHOVE?still laughing at flatting??dont just say it and laugh. take a minute to think it through.I dont mind if you prove me wrong, just do it with some logical reasoning and explanation. Link to post Share on other sites
cardcore 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 LOCK IT UPin b4 loq Link to post Share on other sites
Acid_Knight 2 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 I dont mind if you prove me worng, just do it with some logical reasoning and explanation.I have AA and it's the nuts. The only way to make a mistake is to fold. Don't fold. Ever. Link to post Share on other sites
ThePhoenix88 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 I think folding here is a pretty good play. You're likely never going to win in a showdown cause they can flop a set, straight, flush, two etc. Just save some chips. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted May 28, 2008 Share Posted May 28, 2008 BUT.....if you bring in this 4th player into the mix, you have a chance to play basically a second hand heads up and AA is a monster heads up as we all know.So, do you guys wanna change your insta-shove opinion or do you see any fault in my analysis???But your best scenario against this guy is to have all your money in against him with the best possible hand. If you are saying you have some reason to think he is going to fold and are calling in order to entice a shove from him or something, seems kinda silly... what better time for him to call a shove then with all that money in the pot? Link to post Share on other sites
theabyss 0 Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 "You have two guys all in already who you will undoubtably be contesting when the board is complete because there is no way you are going to fold to either of their all in bets - simple."LOLdude, british guy, why is that funny?Im saying, its obvious that you wont fold. correct? funny for some reason? maybe to you.anyway, even if you shove that statement is still correct. There is no more betting and you have to hold up against those two hands. why is that funny? its just english language used to describe what happens in poker when there are 2 players all in in the same hand against a 3rd guy who is not all in. I dont get your "lol" there Link to post Share on other sites
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