how do you get away from big pocket pair

[AceyDeucy 0]

From my home game, I have noticed something that I now am officially calling a leak in my wife's game, so I am looking for the broadest spectrum of answers here.What will push you off a Big Pocket Pair, e.g. KK? I am more interested in the betting action than the flop itself necessarily. (I assume these hands are unfoldable preflop without a very contrived situation)Obviously, a pair of something big (say A-A-5) that you might have gotten called with will work, as will a suited or straight flop. But what does it take for you?The hand that made me think about this:1-2 NLHE, $100 buy-inMe: $270P2: $268 Her: $170 About each player:Me:Loose/aggressive, sees a lot of flops, does a lot of continuation betting. At the time of this hand, visibly on tilt from having bled off about $100 over the last six hands with quality starting hands getting crushed repeatedly. In the past, I have been known to tilt off staggering sums in very short time periods (including roughly $430 in two consectuive hands with the same guy last week. That one stung.)P2:Wild, insane player. Will push with anything preflop, will call with anything preflop. Has been seen calling MULTIPLE preflop all-ins with 2-7o (and winning, even more disgustingly, consistently outdrawing AK). Has been all-in preflop with 10-5 earlier in the night. Though it's not obvious, often a much more careful player after the flop, and quick to capitalize on his reputation.Her:Tight/aggressive player. Has a Juanda-like record of frequently finishing well in tournaments (has cashed more than anyone else we know), but her cash game play, while a consistent small winner, does not amaze so much. MIGHT bluff once a night, but usually not. Will make very tough calls, and excels at picking off bluffs.Preflop action:She raises to 6x BB, Me and P2 call from the blinds.Flop:J-7-5I instantly move all-in, P2 calls fairly quickly. She goes in the tank, and decides that she cannot let go of her hand, and calls.EDIT: RESULT IN NEXT POSTI think I would have let this one go, but I am curious as to the consensus, and what else you look for in making a laydown like this.

[AceyDeucy 0]

I turn 77 for middle set, P2 shows 55 for bottom set, she shows KK for an overpair. Turn and river miss, and I spend the next five minutes stacking chips.

[Bluffs2005 0]

2 calls gotta mean to your wife that at least one of you has trips and the fact that preflop her large bet was called. The question and I also do this myself sometimes is not focus on what you have but what do they have in calling/raising these hands as they did?

[srharris22 0]

3 handed, she raises 6x the bb and gets to callers (with 55 and 77) while she holds KK. first of all what were the blinds at this time? or just what was her 6x the bb raise to? either one would suffice.now, her deciding to lay down KK against and all in by a loose player(P2) and then to you (on tilt) is really a hard play to pull off. I would put the loose guy on maybe having hit the jack and then you on maybe queens or AK. If you are on tilt i don't see you slow playing AA.2nd and most important was this a cash game????and how many people on the table? 7-10? 1st of all what are you doing calling a preflop raise with 77 for 6x the bb? not so much of a leak in your wife's game but rather a leak in yours where you got lucky, i think she probably makes a good play and just gets unlucky personally. by yoru description i put your P2 as maybe hitting a pair or having 2 over cards to the flop (or trying to steal a big pot for 24 dollars), and then you call probably with AJs or QQ, as you are on tilt and i doubt that you would be able to slow play AA at that time. Now JJ would have worried me though, but per your description of each of you I think it is a tough laydown and she decided it was worth the gamble.If i know the players better maybe i make that fold, then again that is the joy of the cash game, she gets unlucky but gets to buy back in where she has people calling preflop bets of 6x teh bb with 55 and 77.

[Guest]

He's getting 3:1 on his money, if he hits his hand, the implied odds are tremendous. I doubt he put his spouse on a huge PP...he probably put her on 2 overcards, the other player...he said it first, very loose, aggressive.... who knows what he could be holding? The flop hit two players square in the nose, and she was unable to let go of her overpair...I'll call $12 to win 200+ with a deep stack anyday of the week.Now as for the OP's question, it's such a lame, redundant answer...but it depends. You stated that you were on tilt from getting premium hands crushed lately, so when you called and didn't re-raise, she probably doesn't put you on a premium holding. When I'm on tilt and I pick up up a strong starting hand, I like to re-raise to define my hand, or to pick up the pot and start to ease the pain. If that isn't your playing style...I apologize. She probably largely discredits any holding the maniac has....because as stated he's very loose pre-flop. The flop hits and doesn't contain an A, which would make this an easy laydown. The flop comes down as stated and you insta move-in. Your on tilt, you've been getting your teeth kicked in, etc. Your move tells me your strong...but the question is how strong? Set strong....pocket 10's strong...KJo....etc. When the 2nd player called if anything made a call more appealing to your wife. She might of put him on something like pocket 8's or 9's, and when P2 called (probably with the reasoning that you missed the flop again or had something like A7, and he therefore has the best hand.) It's a very tough laydown, and I would be more apt to do it in a tourney as opposed to a cash game were I can make the call...be wrong, but then re-buy and use the existing information. Also contributing is the the fact that stakes are not tremendously steep which would maybe cause someone to play more weak-tight than usual.Whew...I'm out..Xmas

[koolromeo 0]

this is an easy laydown for your wife. you put $258 into a $36 pot, the lag calss for practically the same money. she must fold. she can't call two all ins in a cash game for 80 bigbets.to the guy that wouldn't call $12 with a pocket pair, this is exactly the situation you want. you want the tight player to "announce" a big hand with a big raise when you have a pocketpair. the raise is putting a bullseye on the raisers stack. if you hit your set, the only way you don't get paid off is if the riaser had a hand like a-k. when a tight player gets that big overpair, they are doomed if they run into a set.after watching daniel and gus, i've also learned to see flops against big stacks when faced with a raise when i have position with hands like 3-4 or 6-4. i know i'm going to be done with the hand if i miss, and i know i'm going to win big if i hit. the situation has to be just right though.

[srharris22 0]

actually it is 2 to 1 on his money putting in 12 to win 24 ish up to 27.minor point but still. 10 handed 100 dollar buy-in 1-2 NL with people already doubled and tripled up, I will find better places to put my money in. esp when he spoke so highly of his wife's play, how can he expect to get all of her money in pot and even spoke highly of the P2 post flop play as being excpetionally better than his preflop play.how anyone can change that much I have no idea b/c you put 7-2o in the pot calling 2 all-ins you are a fish in my book all day long or you have way too much money and think that poker is gambling!the 77 call is however you want to play it, but if i am playing against people that raise 6x the bb i question the level of play and will not be putting in money on a hand like 77 in that situation. Raises like that remind me of NL 1-3 tables at AC where people raise to 20 dollars first in with TT. You will get AA in that situation and then I want that 4:1 odds but going in my direction.So many people watch daniel and gus play these crazy hands but never listen to when or why they play them, they just decide that these must be great hands to play b/c they crack somebody with them, problem is that these guys can turn around and still win a pot with great plays even when their cards don't hit to make them winning hands in the long run.

[htc1278 0]

The question is, can she lay down her KK based on this action? Yes. It seems like everyone plays with each other pretty regularly and you have a good read on her. She should know that you know what type of hands she plays. When she sees you go all-in (you did it first, right?) and then when another player calls, I think this is an obvious fold. She should know that you already realize her hand is pretty strong based on her pre-flop raise and her style of play and yet you went all-in after the flop anyways. You know how she plays, she knows that you know it, and she should see your all-in as a show of extreme strength (add to it that the other player called and he is a strong post-flop player shows that she's probably drawing to 2 outs).

[AceyDeucy 0]

Mike Caro's "You need a better hand to overcall than call."The logic went something along the lines of "Your chances of winning fall faster than the pot odds increase, since the first caller obviously thinks they can beat whatever bet." That should have been a big swing factor for her. While AJs is a very reasonable hand to put me on here (as are JJ, 77 and 55) P2 could NOT call me with that, at least not quickly. P2 had to have AT LEAST two pair (and, since he is nuts, J7s and J5s are not unreasonable, and 75s is almost expected here, as are any of the aformentioned PP. I personally put him on JJ as fast as he called at that moment.) In retrospect, that seems to be the answer I was looking for.Why I played 77Against her big raises I love cards like this and 67s, etc, because I know what I am up against. Really, had I been playing in my regular mode, I still would have called here, I just would have considered it more first. Similarly, I would have attacked that flop, also, though not by pushing all-in. A Jack-high flop against a raise from her is just about perfect because I know it missed her, and she knows that I will play exactly that kind of garbage against her. Of course, in a normal situation, I would have bet less, and then gone nuts on the reraise from her or P2. (depending on the size of my bet, I would expect P2 to either wait like a snake in the grass on a small bet, or go bananas on a big bet, expecting action. If P2 smooth-called, she would have reraised to protect her hand and push me off my likely straight draw.)But to the argument as to the pot odds: it is most definitely NOT 2-1. We are preflop here, and there are some very deep stacks. If I hit with 77, the implied odds are sky-high (as it would turn out to be). And if I miss, it's an easy check-and-fold. If I hit my set, my implied odds, as it turned out, were closer to 70-1. Now, I am only 8-1 (against) to hit on the flop, and with KK, my wife will price me out of any further cards. So, perhaps a better estimate on my odds on this hand is to take the 8-1 against catching the 70-1 and put my play at 8.75-1. Granted, I am really waving my hands here, but the point is that I was getting plenty of overlay to take the longer shot at catching perfect. Had she been shortstacked, and had P2 not called behind me, this play would have been MUCH worse. Of course, I was on tilt at the time, and would have called anyway. To illustrate my state of mind at the time, I had peeked at the first seven when it was dealt, and was actually rooting for a 2 so I could get away from the hand and collect myself, but with her raise, I couldn't NOT play it.

[SOWhatKid 0]

it was horrible play all around

[BeanGW 0]

Against one player on tilt and another maniac, with a completely disorganized flop... with a big raise and two callers???????Ummm... are you kidding me? She absolutely made the right call, and was the only one playing it right. What's she afraid of? The three sets are the only things that would worry me, and if there's a 6x preflop raise, and two callers, I'm putting them on a pair of 9's or better, or two overcards (A-K, A-Q, maybe A-J, Q-Q, J-J) The set of Jacks would be the only thing that would really worry me here, and that's not gonna be nearly enough to get me off of my K's against two loose players and a flop like that.No way, no how, do I fold here.Only times to maybe consider folding K's post-flop are when the board is three to a suit, or three to a straight. Also, maybe with a couple of Aces on the board.But even in these specific cases it really depends a lot on the players, the pre-flop betting, and the post-flop action before it hits you... Those are just my thoughts, and reverse implied odds will probably have a lot to do with my decision, because most cases I don't expect my hand to improve, while the others most certainly will. But in the case you mentioned, I can't see how I could fold my K's.