Qq In Sb Facing A Raise

[Monty27 0]

Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)Preflop: Hero is SB with Q , Q . 5 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls.Flop: (7.40 SB) A , 5 , 5 (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Turn: (4.70 BB) 3 (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.River: (6.70 BB) 7 (2 players)Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 8.70 BBI'd like to see how this should be played from the flop on. Villain has been relatively tight up to this point and he's playing 3 tables.

[ABigMotivation 0]

If you said he was playing tight, I would lead the flop to see if he would raise and then consider dumping the ladies. I dont really like the check calling all the way through.stack sizes would be nice though

[Frez 0]

I don't think stack sizes are that big of an issue.Being OOP I would also suggest leading the flop. Check/calling down gives you no info at all. He could be on a steal, but maybe not if he's tight and multi-tabling. You put in the last bet preflop and took control, why do you give up the lead on the flop? Keep going until he tells you different.

[quadaces 0]

You have to lead that flop. He could Have a small Ace, smaller PP, or bluffing but you cant narrow it down because you didnt give him a chance to raise you. If its me I lead the flop, if I get raised then you have to decide if he has the Ace or not. If he just calls then you decide if he has maybe a Small Ace and noe wants to get to the river cheap, or if he has a smaller PP.In either case you dont find out a thing by C/C ing the flop

[Zach6668 513]

I don't mind c/c, c/c, c/f.People saying you don't learn anything by c/c'ing could probably improve their hand reading skills. (I used to think this too, fwiw)That said, I still probably lead here 90+% of the time, but I'm intrigued by the checking idea. The only thing is, we need to know a bit more about this villain that we do vs an average player to play it with a flop check.

[RISEorFall 0]

why lead the flop? we hoping he folds KK?no A is folding, no hand that we beat is folding (except maybe KK, but thats unlikely from pf play)we get no value from a hand we beat,why not c/c, c/c, b/f?

[Actuary 3]

I don't mind c/c, c/c, c/f.

sometime in the past, I brought up (I say berought up because it's not as if I read other boards; but I'm 100% sure it's not a new concept) the idea that we worry whether we have the odds to see the river based solely on our "outs". Often discussion goes "If you call the Turn, you gotta call that river" Well, no. There's something to be said about what a river bet would say about your chances of being ahead here.in the long run, I'd think b/f flop given pf is best.also, b/f river > c/c, right?

[Actuary 3]

why lead the flop?

To save $ when we are behind vs a transparent player

[RISEorFall 0]

To save $ when we are behind vs a transparent player

do we know he's transparent?we know he thinks he's good enough to play 3 tables at once...does that make him transparent?

[Actuary 3]

do we know he's transparent?we know he thinks he's good enough to play 3 tables at once...does that make him transparent?

no, I was just giving a reason.I think we are rarely against KK, so we lead and get called or Raised by Ax.Or we get most anything else to fold.We make less against 99 this way (I suppose); but how many bets are we making agianst worse hands here?Is TT betting all the way?A9 might never raise, then what do we do.I'd suggest if we lead the flop and are called, we b/f turn and c/f river.

[Zach6668 513]

sometime in the past, I brought up (I say berought up because it's not as if I read other boards; but I'm 100% sure it's not a new concept) the idea that we worry whether we have the odds to see the river based solely on our "outs". Often discussion goes "If you call the Turn, you gotta call that river" Well, no. There's something to be said about what a river bet would say about your chances of being ahead here.in the long run, I'd think b/f flop given pf is best.also, b/f river > c/c, right?

I think that this is a HUGE concept in LHE these days. I used to believe that call turn = call river mumbo jumbo, but getting into HU really reversed my thinking on that, since like 100% of our opposite will double barrell. The river action depends on our reads on the villain, then, as to whether he's capable of firing again with air.I would also agree that bet/fold is better than c/c. The only better hand he just might check behind is KK, but it's unlikely given that not only did he just call the 3b pf, but we're basically screaming to him that we don't have an ace.

[Frez 0]

If we lead flop and villan raises, can we not fold it right there? Find out we are beat for 0.5 BBs instead of c/c all the way for 2.5 BBs?Sure you can learn something by c/c'ing the flop, but not as much as you learn by leading I think.

[Zach6668 513]

It's not so much about JUST information.We get value form worse hands when we check, whereas worse hands might fold when we bet.It's not costing us a full 2.5 BBs, or 1.5 BBs if we fold the river to find out we're beat because some portion of the time we're ahead.It is costing us a full 0.5 BBs when we bet/fold the flop, though, and it could be even more of a mistake if he is raising with a worse hand (although it's probably so rare in this case that it's negligible).

[Monty27 0]

stack sizes would be nice though

We both had around 10 dollars at the time.FWIW

Villain had A5

Thanks for all of the analysis guys. I've read a lot of stuff in this thread that has really got me thinking. Usually in these situations I tend to be pretty aggressive and try to raise in position/check-raise OOP but I just couldn't pull the trigger on this hand.

[Zach6668 513]

Wait... you're saying you were considering c/r'ing this flop?IMO, that's a terrible play.

[Monty27 0]

Is it because I'd be shutting out hands that I can beat and only getting called by an ace and probably KK? I'm still trying to pick up this whole limit game.

[Zach6668 513]

Is it because I'd be shutting out hands that I can beat and only getting called by an ace and probably KK? I'm still trying to pick up this whole limit game.

Exactly.It's a silly line to 3 bet preflop and then check the flop though. I can think of a few isolated times when I'd do that, but for the most part, you're going to be betting the flop after you 3-bet, whether you are in position or not. I think it's more of a mistake to check OOP, to be honest. Like I said, it can come up though.In this particular case, your check is very strange, and will raise some eyebrows, so I suspect some of the hands that we beat will check behind here. I would check JJ behind here every time, fwiw. So, you're also giving him a chance to play pretty perfectly against your range, and only bet hands that are super strong, like TP. If he were to bet as a bluff, most players would be folding to the c/r, so you get no value there (aside from the one sb), but for the most part, you'd make more by just betting and letting players make bad calls.Also, you'll basically never fold better hand by c/r'ing here, maaaaaybe some super nit will fold KK, but I wouldn't bet on it. Literally. Ax never folds, so you're just value towning yourself.When you make a bet or raise, make sure to ask yourself exactly what the purpose of it is. Are better hands folding ever? Are worse hands calling? Do we have enough equity even if we are behind to make a semi bluff? etc

[Actuary 3]

It's not so much about JUST information.We get value form worse hands when we check, whereas worse hands might fold when we bet.It's not costing us a full 2.5 BBs, or 1.5 BBs if we fold the river to find out we're beat because some portion of the time we're ahead.It is costing us a full 0.5 BBs when we bet/fold the flop, though, and it could be even more of a mistake if he is raising with a worse hand (although it's probably so rare in this case that it's negligible).

I would not imagine we make much from worse hands.We 3 bet preflop and were not 4 bet.What bets all the way?Compare it to the times he has Ax and we lose 2.5 BB, vs leading.I actually want him to raise the flop, or fold. I don't want a call.I have trouble playing the turn and river on that board against a flop flat call after preflop action

[Zach6668 513]

I agree it's a tough spot on the turn if he calls. That's why being OOP sucks so hard, lol.Vs some guys I'd bet/fold, vs others I'd check/fold, and vs others I'd c/c down. Depends so much on reads being OOP.

[RISEorFall 0]

i get what you guys are saying about losing less by betting, but this looks like an easy easy way ahead /way behind to me.

[Zach6668 513]

Do you think we're way ahead and way behind approximately the same portion of the time?

[RISEorFall 0]

Do you think we're way ahead and way behind approximately the same portion of the time?

with a CO raising range? probably. why? is that another portion of wa/wb i never heard of?

[Zach6668 513]

I don't know if it's officially part of wa/wb, but if we're like wa:wb like 1:10, we should just c/f. Hypothetically.