Jj Preflop (again)

[cardcore 0]

Full Tilt Poker Game #6492851112: $55 + $5 Sit & Go (Turbo) (49357478), Table 1 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:52:35 ET - 2008/05/20Seat 1: mrtn86 (1,235)Seat 2: reedinreedout (1,060)Seat 3: theusual06 (1,270)Seat 4: oscarmind (3,110)Seat 5: Leendo (1,650)Seat 7: wolfpack86 (2,715)Seat 8: EnergyBurst (2,460)reedinreedout posts the small blind of 60theusual06 posts the big blind of 120The button is in seat #1*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to EnergyBurst [Jd Js]oscarmind foldsLeendo foldswolfpack86 raises to 2,715, and is all inEnergyBurst has 15 seconds left to actEnergyBurst has requested TIMEWhat do I do here? Only hand I've seen him show down was KK, and that was JUST before this one. I'm lost.

[Sheiky 0]

My god your avatar is hard to stop looking at...As for the hand, i really don't know, what did he do with KK the previous hand? Open shove?I think i fold here, i think, it's close.

[potatoman 0]

Without a read, I fold QQ-.What am I hoping for here - 88-TT?I don't want to flip a coin and it sucks when they make this move with QQ-AA. Can't believe people do this in $55 games...

[gobears 0]

A lot of the time, this is AK. It's a turbo so that would lend itself to shoving. However, this is also a SNG so surviving until the $ has its arguments. I think that we can take AA/KK out of his range. He might have shoved KK last hand but he doubled up so I'm assuming he had a smaller stack.Sounds like a ICM problem if someone can run the #'s.

[Poker Addict 0]

I fold. But yes, this really depends on if he has been open shoveing around 20 BBs. If this guy is doing this a lot, I call. Otherwise I would prefer to hold for a better spot

[Sheiky 0]

I fold. But yes, this really depends on if he has been open shoveing around 20 BBs. If this guy is doing this a lot, I call. Otherwise I would prefer to hold for a better spot

This may sound weird, but i think it might be the other way around, it of course depends on how the player thinks, but shoving after you just showed down KK is a super strong move. If someone has been playing normaly then all of a sudden he shoves, i think i'm more inclined to give him a stronger range.

[Aces Rule 0]

Seat 7: wolfpack86 (2,715)Seat 8: EnergyBurst (2,460)reedinreedout posts the small blind of 60theusual06 posts the big blind of 120The button is in seat #1

I also fold. Too little history on Wolf and your not invested so an easy enough fold - although I don't put him on a big hand so likley a mid or sm pp. Guys who play big pp like that are usually found in the very low limits where the odds of getting called are much higher. I don't think he's that interested in getting called but not afraid to race if it comes to that.

[Jefe 0]

U used to play a lot of smaller SNG and this was usually one of two hands AK or AA KK again and he is pushing hoping you think there is no way he could have gotten a hand again.

[Sheiky 0]

I also fold. Too little history on Wolf and your not invested so an easy enough fold - although I don't put him on a big hand so likley a mid or sm pp. Guys who play big pp like that are usually found in the very low limits where the odds of getting called are much higher. I don't think he's that interested in getting called but not afraid to race if it comes to that.

?

[KentuckySlim 0]

You have the 4th best hand possible right here. I have a hard time folding here. There's just no good reason for him to do this. Stealing 180 chips is stupid. Shying away from action with QQ+ is also stupid. I just think his range is too wide to let it go.I just don't like folding this hand to this action. Raise, then shove and I can let JJ go, but open shoving at this level just doesn't scream monster to me.Of course I always play balls to the wall to win, so maybe I go broke here...

[Aces Rule 0]

?

Too costly to be wrong and b/c hero had nothing invested into pot yet so easy enough to get away from it. Even if villian has overcards with this shove, is it worth a race with stacks that deep? Look for a better battle to fight.

[Sheiky 0]

Too costly to be wrong and b/c hero had nothing invested into pot yet so easy enough to get away from it. Even if villian has overcards with this shove, is it worth a race with stacks that deep? Look for a better battle to fight.

The fact you have nothing 'invested' doesn't matter at all, it never does because as soon as the money leaves our stack it's not ours anymore, it's the pot's.If the villains rane is 33-TT and AK/AQ, this is a profitable call, so yeh if he has overcards some % of the time it's worth it given that you think he'll have smaller PPs a lot.

[KentuckySlim 0]

The fact you have nothing 'invested' doesn't matter at all, it never does because as soon as the money leaves our stack it's not ours anymore, it's the pot's.If the villains rane is 33-TT and AK/AQ, this is a profitable call, so yeh if he has overcards some % of the time it's worth it given that you think he'll have smaller PPs a lot.

QFT. If you are a favorite to his range, it is profitable to call here. It seems to me that you are, since we have few reads, a favorite against any hands that shovel here.Serious question for those who advocate folding: what are you waiting for? Aces preflop? Flop the nuts? Just seems like a good chance to get your hand in as most likely a substantial favorite, even if you are a big dog a small % of the time.

[Poker Addict 0]

I prefer to be the aggressor with JJ and don't like calling off my stack when it is this healthy in a SNG. In a cash game I would play it, and reload if I'm wrong. You either win the cash there or you don't and the cash won is in direct proportion to what you are risking. I need Copper to come do the ICM on this as I am curious to see what's recommended. But winning this pot does not directly translate to immediate money won.Anyone do the numbers? And I am only for sure taking AA/KK out of his range if I have seen him standard raise with that stack, if he has just been shoving I am not that quick to take it out of his range.

[cardcore 0]

i folded, fwiw

[copernicus 0]

77+ has to be in his range for this to be even moderately profitable. fold.

[Aces Rule 0]

The fact you have nothing 'invested' doesn't matter at all, it never does because as soon as the money leaves our stack it's not ours anymore, it's the pot's.

That's the theroy but not the reality. Calling the shove gives 1:1 odds but had the caller first invested (or donated to the pot if you wish) before the shove then the odds to call get better and if enough was invested/donated before the re-raise, then the concept of "Pot Committed" comes into play. In this case nothing was invested before the shove so nothing is at risk with a fold but calling risks everything since even the 'best of it' going into a flop isn't always the best on the river. But it's still a neat Sklanski-ism!

If the villains rane is 33-TT and AK/AQ, this is a profitable call, so yeh if he has overcards some % of the time it's worth it given that you think he'll have smaller PPs a lot.

There's nothing profitable about busting out this deep stacked. If either was short stacked the call becomes much more reasonable, understandable and possibly even profitable "in the long run" mostly b/c the shorty had to dbl up or the big stack could afford it. I believe making these kind of calls simply b/c they are mathatically profitable "in the long run" fail to take stack preservation and tournament strategy into account. With several other shorter stacks than hero's larger and very competitive stack, risking it all on small or even marginal % edge doesn't strike me as good stack management or good tourney strategy - but hey that's probably just me!

[copernicus 0]

That's the theroy but not the reality. Calling the shove gives 1:1 odds but had the caller first invested (or donated to the pot if you wish) before the shove then the odds to call get better and if enough was invested/donated before the re-raise, then the concept of "Pot Committed" comes into play. In this case nothing was invested before the shove so nothing is at risk with a fold but calling risks everything since even the 'best of it' going into a flop isn't always the best on the river. But it's still a neat Sklanski-ism!

Its the reality in a cash game, not in a tourney, where you can gain equity sitting out.

[WhatArunAA 0]

Never fold here please.

[mk 11]

Never fold here please.

ffs, thank you. this is AA/KK <1% of the time. this board has gotten ridiculously nitty.

[TravisG 0]

I CALL.

[cardcore 0]

Never fold here please.

He's not doing this with any pair worse than JJ, in my opinion, and do you really want to flip (at best, I thought) at this stage in the tournament with this stack? I think in relation to the blinds, my stack, and my perceived edge, I should be folding JJ here and just waiting to pick up blinds or find a better spot.Anyway, like I said before, I folded. He was called by one of the shortstacks and his AK > 44. So yes, I would have been in with the best hand, but I didn't think flipping was necessary this "early" when I had a stack big enough to continue bullying blinds.

[Mercury69 3]

The first question isn't "What is his range?", but "What is he shoving 20 BB's for?" Yes, it looks very strong and, if it was me, I'd have to have a very good reason (or several) for doing so, such as: I have QQ+ or, maybe AK AND I've been pushing people around some AND I've been showing down big hands and "there's no way people will think I'm open shoving 20 BB's with a real hand but I am hahaha".So, sad as it may seem, I'm probably folding JJ- but probably calling with QQ+ and AK.

[WhatArunAA 0]

I dont understand how someone shoving 20 bbs = strength.. it is VERY weak.... just because he had AK this time and you were racing doesn't make it a good fold.. this clown is rarely ever pushing QQ-AA and if you guys automatically assign retardely nitty ranges then you are missing out on a ton of value.

[WhatArunAA 0]

The first question isn't "What is his range?", but "What is he shoving 20 BB's for?" Yes, it looks very strong and, if it was me, I'd have to have a very good reason (or several) for doing so, such as: I have QQ+ or, maybe AK AND I've been pushing people around some AND I've been showing down big hands and "there's no way people will think I'm open shoving 20 BB's with a real hand but I am hahaha".So, sad as it may seem, I'm probably folding JJ- but probably calling with QQ+ and AK.

If you are folding JJ but not QQ.. then you have to think AQ is in his range.. if thats not in his range then JJ is the same hand as QQ.