Ever Fold Weak Aaxx Preflop

[thebenCA 0]

Does it ever make sense to fold a weak AAxx preflop in PLO. I lost a bunch of big pots in PLO tournys and cash games lately by stacking off preflop with a weak AAxx (AA64os, AA72os, etc.). Each time I found myself up against a stronger AAxx hand, and the xx cards ended up deciding the pot. Obviously, the only reason to think about folding AA preflop would be if you're pretty sure you up against another AAxx. It's usually easy to figure out since good player isn't going to stack off preflop with kkxx. Although I suppose an argument could be made that the $ already in the pot (once you realize you're up agains another AAxx) might give you the odds to call even if you're behind. What do you guys think?

[OhKeePa 0]

i think in general people way over value any pocket pair in Omaha...i have never run the numbers on it, but i cant see how AAXX could be anything better then a coinflip against 4 other random cards...there is just too much going on

[bdc30 0]

Yes, I fold crappy AAxx ocassionally. Not sure it's the right thing to do, but when I see a big pot shaping up with a couple of callers and I'm out of position, I'll muck them.

[Morgan1988 0]

I only have a limited PLO knowledge, but if a big pot is shaping up i'm definitely folding AAXXos. Because essentially you're aiming to flop your set. If you don't, you have no idea where you are in the hand and could very easily stack off. I don't even like playing 2 pair in the hole (os) in PLO, for the same reason. I think it has a much higher ev (especially in multi-way pots) to be playing double suited/connecting cards.But as i said, my knowledge is limited, and i could very well be (and probably am) wrong.

[Frez 0]

i think in general people way over value any pocket pair in Omaha...i have never run the numbers on it, but i cant see how AAXX could be anything better then a coinflip against 4 other random cards...

I disagree, AAXX is much better than a coinflip against 4 other random cards. However, are your opponents willing to commit their stacks with random cards? No. I believe Bud recently posted a hand in the low content thread where he had a decently connected hand and it was a favorite against two other players with AAXX hands.So I would/do fold weak AAXX hands when my position is bad when some other players look happy to play for some big raises preflop.

[bdc30 0]

fwiw, two ragged aces against four "randoms" isn't as big a favourite as you might thinkhttp://twodimes.net/h/?z=4668622pokenum -mc 500000 -o ah ad 3c 9h - ks 4h 7c td Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV3c Ad Ah 9h 313310 62.66 186690 37.34 0 0.00 0.627Ks 7c Td 4h 186690 37.34 313310 62.66 0 0.00 0.373and really, how often are you going to be against KT74r when some money goes in to the pot?

[Frez 0]

OK, I KNOW I already answered this earlier at work today, but it does not show now so here I go again:FWIW, I think 63-37 is a HUGE edge and I would shove preflop HU with those odds anytime. Anyone who would not should give up playing poker this instant, esp cash games. But yes, no one is stacking off with KT73r. Like I said above, if the money is going in it's certainly with a better than random hand. But I believe, HU, that AAXX would be a fav against nearly any non-AA hand?Edit:pokenum -mc 500000 -o ah ad 3c 7s - js ts 9h 8d Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV7s 3c Ad Ah 269051 53.81 230949 46.19 0 0.00 0.538Js Ts 8d 9h 230949 46.19 269051 53.81 0 0.00 0.462pokenum -mc 500000 -o ah ad 3c 7s - js ts jh th Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boardscards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV7s 3c Ad Ah 261231 52.25 238769 47.75 0 0.00 0.522Js Ts Jh Th 238769 47.75 261231 52.25 0 0.00 0.478Not huge favs against some nice drawing hands, but favs none the less. And these are HU. Multiway your chances will drop (although you may still be in the lead).So can we say that HU, preflop even a weak AA is a fav against anything other than a strong AA? And the odds of that matchup occuring must be similar to a KK vs AA matchup in Hold'em.

[dingas 0]

i think in general people way over value any pocket pair in Omaha...i have never run the numbers on it, but i cant see how AAXX could be anything better then a coinflip against 4 other random cards...there is just too much going on

This is wrong. AAxx is a pretty good favorite against 4 random cards. It does even better against hands with big pairs, and any hand containing an unpaired ace. If stacks are not too deep, you should usually raise or re-raise with aces from any position. Possible exceptions are when you are in the blinds or in early position, or if there is multi-way limped pot, where your aces are weak. Then it's probably better just to call and hope to hit your set.With deeper stacks you need to be careful, because you don't want to give half your hand away. Still, with double suited aces, you should usually play fast, because you will hit the flop so often, and you are giving up value by not raising preflop.It would be rare to fold aces pre-flop. Maybe if the stacks are deep and there is a raise and a re-raise and you are in the small blind, you can fold. In PL08, AAxx goes down in value a lot if you don't have good side cards - in that game, you can safely fold something like AA96 offsuit pretty much every time in a 10-handed game.

[Ricer98 0]

I can't think of a single time I would fold AAxx preflop. Even in dingas example of pot then repot in front of us from the SB. We can repot and get almost 60% of our stack in preflop then simply jam the flop for the remaining, assuming we get called. We are a coin flip at worst and there is alot of dead money allready in the pot, folding would be a huge mistake.

[benji2813 0]

There are a lot of situations in which junky aces should be thrown away. One would be if there is a lot of multiway action and you are pretty sure someone else has better aces. For the most part I limp/call with junky aces for deception purposes.

[benji2813 0]

i think in general people way over value any pocket pair in Omaha...i have never run the numbers on it, but i cant see how AAXX could be anything better then a coinflip against 4 other random cards...there is just too much going on

Hand Pot equity Wins TiesAA** 65.64% 391,886 3,957**** 34.36% 204,157 3,957AA** 35.40% 98,749 2,792**** 21.62% 58,899 4,543**** 21.52% 58,587 4,588**** 21.46% 58,454 4,529Regardless what people say you should push you equity in omaha just like in other games. That's a pretty broad statement, but for the most part it is true.

[TRB05 1]

If you can get your stack in the pot preflop with AA92os, do it! The chances that you are up against a better AAxx are so slim, that it outweighs the instances when you are up against a better AAxx..IMO

[dingas 0]

If you can get your stack in the pot preflop with AA92os, do it! The chances that you are up against a better AAxx are so slim, that it outweighs the instances when you are up against a better AAxx..IMO

This is true, but most of the time you won't be able to get your stack in. If you are only able to get 25% of your stack in, and you are giving away half of your hand, that is not such a good idea. With good position and with double-suited aces, it is probably okay, but with AA93 offsuit in the small blind it doesn't look so favorable. Also, if you see a raise and re-raise in front of you, it is not that unlikely that you are up against another pair of aces. In itself that's not such an unfavorable situation since you'll never be worse than a 3:2 dog, but it is dangerous if you get all in three ways against someone with AAxx and someone with 6789 double suited, as your equity is likely to be really bad there.

[KingJames 11]

i think in general people way over value any pocket pair in Omaha...i have never run the numbers on it, but i cant see how AAXX could be anything better then a coinflip against 4 other random cards...there is just too much going on

AA is better than a coinflip against 4 randoms, but it's a very very slight dog to 89TJ double suited...