What's His Range Here?

[AimHigher 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)UTG+1 (t6415)MP1 (t1120)MP2 (t669)CO (t1155)Button (t8680)SB (t2495)BB (t887)Hero (t5579)Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , J . Hero raises to t600, 4 folds, Button calls t600, 1 fold, BB raises to t887, Hero calls t287, Button calls t287.Flop: (t2761) 4 , 8 , 4 (3 players)Hero bets t1000, Button calls t1000.Turn: (t4761) 4 (3 players)Hero??BB is all in. There is 2k on the side pot.Once he flat called me on the flop I thought he was floating me with an overpair or possibly two overs. I figured I could probably discount aces and kings from his range since he just called preflop and JUST called on the flop.I figured I was probably only behind queens and ahead of tens and nines which is what I was putting him on. Now looking back on it it's a possibility he could call a shove with eights as well. I did shove the turn, but I'd like to see what other want to do? I have 3692 behind. 2k is in the side pot, 2.7k is in the main.Both are unknowns, top 4 cash.

[Metternich 0]

Queens probably 3-bet preflop too, I'm shoving that turn 110% of the time.

[jmbreslin 0]

Yikes. I don't like the fact that you're tangling with the bigstack when you have a pretty comfortable stack yourself. I don't think I'd shove the turn because I don't think you'll get called by one of the hands you beat there. Any 2nd shot commits you to pushing, so I probably check and hope he checks to the river. Looks like a classic way ahead/way behind situation, so I try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. If I check the turn and he puts me all in, I'm prepared to let it go and conserve the chips I have left.

[jmbreslin 0]

Queens probably 3-bet preflop too, I'm shoving that turn 110% of the time.

HUGE assumption at $1.75. Players at this level love to act trappy with big pairs.

[AimHigher 0]

Yikes. I don't like the fact that you're tangling with the bigstack when you have a pretty comfortable stack yourself. I don't think I'd shove the turn because I don't think you'll get called by one of the hands you beat there. Any 2nd shot commits you to pushing, so I probably check and hope he checks to the river. Looks like a classic way ahead/way behind situation, so I try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. If I check the turn and he puts me all in, I'm prepared to let it go and conserve the chips I have left.

Trust me, it's not by choice lol. But once he calls I have to bet the flop for value. I bet smaller on the flop because it was pretty dry, the 4 didn't hit his range and I wanted to give myself a little more room if I was put to a decision for the rest of my stack.Let's talk about his range, since you've said players like to act trappy at this level, let's include aces and kings in his range.That means that we have something like: 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA all seeing the turn with us. The reason I shoved here is because I figured AA and KK weren't in his range after he didn't raise preflop or on the flop, so that only really left QQ.I could see A8 calling on the button and floating the flop and I imagine at this level 77, 66, 55 will sometimes as well. I also think there are probably some random 8s in his range like 89s. I suppose he could have 44 but I wasn't too worried about the 1 combination of 44.It was made tougher by the fact this is like the 3rd hand of the final table and I didn't have any hands with him before that. With reads it is a lot easier to say which hands he is calling with and which hands are being folded out by a shove.

[Kid DynOmite 0]

I would value bet here about 2200 and then push the rest in on the river. I think his range here is massive... Unless you're playing in a big $ buy in event. He could easily have 99 or 1010, Ace Big, A8 sooted. He's also not folding 77,66,55 to what looks to be a c bet from you. That would be either super weak or a good read. Intermediate to novice players usually do not play weak or well. This expands his range even more.

[Aces Rule 0]

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , J . Hero raises to t600, 4 folds, Button calls t600, 1 fold, BB raises to t887, Hero calls t287, Button calls t287.Flop: (t2761) 4 , 8 , 4 (3 players)Hero bets t1000, Button calls t1000.Turn: (t4761) 4 (3 players)Hero??

Call UTG and then again BB preflop followed by call on that flop = it all adds up to a mid-pocket pair but a weak player may be hanging on with overcards. The only mid pp you have to fear is 88. QQ, KK or AA should have revealed themselves after the BB went all-in and UTG called! I think you are sufficently strong enough on the turn to check it (shows weakness) going for a ck-raise all-in. If he checks thou, go all-in on the river to make it look like a huge bluff.JJ is a difficult hand to play and even more so vs multiway pots. Attempting to get HU with the BB would have been in your best interest preflop with a re-r to 1900. Since Btn just called your opening pf raise there is a better than average chance he'd fold to your re-r and you would be HU vs BB and it wouldn't have cost you anymore than your post flop bet or put you to a difficult decision post flop.

[AimHigher 0]

Call UTG and then again BB preflop followed by call on that flop = it all adds up to a mid-pocket pair but a weak player may be hanging on with overcards. The only mid pp you have to fear is 88. QQ, KK or AA should have revealed themselves after the BB went all-in and UTG called! I think you are sufficently strong enough on the turn to check it (shows weakness) going for a ck-raise all-in. If he checks thou, go all-in on the river to make it look like a huge bluff.JJ is a difficult hand to play and even more so vs multiway pots. Attempting to get HU with the BB would have been in your best interest preflop with a re-r to 1900. Since Btn just called your opening pf raise there is a better than average chance he'd fold to your re-r and you would be HU vs BB and it wouldn't have cost you anymore than your post flop bet or put you to a difficult decision post flop.

I like your comments but it's worth mentioning that the BB closed the action preflop so I didn't have the choice to isolate.

[Aces Rule 0]

I like your comments but it's worth mentioning that the BB closed the action preflop so I didn't have the choice to isolate.

Naaa, didn't! he raised it to 887 and was all-in. You then called instead of re-raising to +/-1900 to isolateEdit: OPPS - my bad! If BB all-in isn't at least 1/2 bet larger it isn't considered a re-raise and the others can only call therefore the BB effectively closed the action even if he was in for more.. Ya, I remember that nasty little rule..

[potatoman 0]

Yikes. I don't like the fact that you're tangling with the bigstack when you have a pretty comfortable stack yourself. I don't think I'd shove the turn because I don't think you'll get called by one of the hands you beat there. Any 2nd shot commits you to pushing, so I probably check and hope he checks to the river. Looks like a classic way ahead/way behind situation, so I try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. If I check the turn and he puts me all in, I'm prepared to let it go and conserve the chips I have left.

This.I either bet the flop as you did, check down, and possible fold a turn/river shove, or I'll even check the flop and play the hand passively, losing less or just winning what's in the pot on showdown, which is fine by me.In my experience, even at this low level, the villain would be happy to check all three street even with a hand like TT or QQ rather than risk going bust with a healthy stack. There's plenty of chips in the pot to be won.Shoving the turn is a bit reckless IMO.

[copernicus 0]

Insta shove. Theres all kinds of worse hands that will read this as a bluff and call, and I dont see QQ+ being out there. Id be more concerned about a donkish 4.

[Metternich 0]

If our read is that he's donkish enough to include QQ in his range then I think we have to include a huge number of other things too, like a whole bunch of different suited or connected 8s, small-mid PPs, 2 high cards making a hero call etc.Whether hes a good player (in which case QQ+ isn't in his range) or a bad one (in which case his range is so wide that QQ+ is a small part of it) we are so far ahead so frequently that I think not shoving that turn loses a ton of value.

[throwemaway 0]

If you think hes floating you with overs/your scared he folds out 99 and 10s on your turn shove, check with the intention of getting it all in when he bets..The board is dry and your play to this point can very easily be perceived as whiffed overs..If he checks through on the turn, shove the river unless its an ace

[jmbreslin 0]

I either bet the flop as you did, check down, and possible fold a turn/river shove, or I'll even check the flop and play the hand passively, losing less or just winning what's in the pot on showdown, which is fine by me.In my experience, even at this low level, the villain would be happy to check all three street even with a hand like TT or QQ rather than risk going bust with a healthy stack. There's plenty of chips in the pot to be won.Shoving the turn is a bit reckless IMO.

I agree with this assessment, but clearly we're in the minority. There is almost 5000 chips in the pot on the turn - I don't think extracting max value at the expense of busting out when we're sitting a very comfortable 3rd in chips is worth it. There are two players on the verge of going out, with two more not far behind them. Busting out here would be tragic, IMO. I'd much rather play this carefully and risk losing extra value.

[copernicus 0]

I agree with this assessment, but clearly we're in the minority. There is almost 5000 chips in the pot on the turn - I don't think extracting max value at the expense of busting out when we're sitting a very comfortable 3rd in chips is worth it. There are two players on the verge of going out, with two more not far behind them. Busting out here would be tragic, IMO. I'd much rather play this carefully and risk losing extra value.

Bingo. Im still trying to get the pot control mantra at the top of my thoughts instead of 3rd or 4th.Mehdit: I bingod too soon. The problem with pot control here is that villain probably wont let you see a cheap showdown. If he does, take advantage of it if he presses you probably need to call.

[outsider13 0]

I'm shoving this turn pretty much all of the time. I don't possibly see somebody flatting with a high overpair here. If he had an overpair QQ+, I think he would chose to isolate after the shorty shove, or at least reraise your flop bet. If he has a 4 or 88, gg you, but this is a pretty damn good flop/turn. I'm getting it in, not leaving anything behind.

[Sheiky 0]

Insta shove. Theres all kinds of worse hands that will read this as a bluff and call, and I dont see QQ+ being out there. Id be more concerned about a donkish 4.

QFT, i'm not sure about stacks with the sidepot, but i think shoving/bet calling is the best option and it isn't even vaguely close.

[Sheiky 0]

I agree with this assessment, but clearly we're in the minority. There is almost 5000 chips in the pot on the turn - I don't think extracting max value at the expense of busting out when we're sitting a very comfortable 3rd in chips is worth it. There are two players on the verge of going out, with two more not far behind them. Busting out here would be tragic, IMO. I'd much rather play this carefully and risk losing extra value.

Our hand is the basicaly the stone cold nuts in this spot, i think folding anywhere in this hand(barring if we for some reason check the turn and the river's an ace or something) is really horrible.There are times to be careful and keep the pot small, but this isn't it, i don't think it's even close, our hand is just super strong here and we're going to get paid of by a TON of worse hands, you really shouldn't fold this in a million years.

[jmbreslin 0]

It all seems to rest on our assessment of how likely a bigger pair is in villain's range and how likely he would be to call a turn push with a worse hand. I personally think the likelihood of the former is greater and the likelihood of the latter is lower than others think. Hero shows aggression all the way through with the PF raise, CB, and then pushes the turn...I just can't see many players calling off another 3700 chips on the turn with many hands that Hero beats. Maybe 99/TT, but highly unlikely with anything else. And I don't think you can just rule out QQ-AA based on the fact that he should have reraised PF - this is a $1.75 and players at this level do all sorts of things they shouldn't do, one of the most common being slowplaying big pairs.

[Sheiky 0]

It all seems to rest on our assessment of how likely a bigger pair is in villain's range and how likely he would be to call a turn push with a worse hand. I personally think the likelihood of the former is greater and the likelihood of the latter is lower than others think. Hero shows aggression all the way through with the PF raise, CB, and then pushes the turn...I just can't see many players calling off another 3700 chips on the turn with many hands that Hero beats. Maybe 99/TT, but highly unlikely with anything else. And I don't think you can just rule out QQ-AA based on the fact that he should have reraised PF - this is a $1.75 and players at this level do all sorts of things they shouldn't do, one of the most common being slowplaying big pairs.

Yes, like never in a million years being able to fold a full house on the turn.

[AimHigher 0]

Here are the results:I shoved the turn, he called and flipped aces. The reason I posted this hand is because I didn't include aces in his range when playing the hand. I ruled them out because he didn't raise. I do think he looks me up with a very wide range here. I think it is probably just a case of players in these games not being able to get value properly from their hands. I'd be interested to see if it is an acceptable shove when plugged into an ICM calculator as I'm not really sure.

[copernicus 0]

Here are the results:I shoved the turn, he called and flipped aces. The reason I posted this hand is because I didn't include aces in his range when playing the hand. I ruled them out because he didn't raise. I do think he looks me up with a very wide range here. I think it is probably just a case of players in these games not being able to get value properly from their hands. I'd be interested to see if it is an acceptable shove when plugged into an ICM calculator as I'm not really sure.

Ive been struggling with this one since I found out the results. The obvious answer is "if you shove youre only getting called by hands that beat you". The problem is that if you check and he bets youre probably going along for the ride anyway.

[AimHigher 0]

Ive been struggling with this one since I found out the results. The obvious answer is "if you shove youre only getting called by hands that beat you". The problem is that if you check and he bets youre probably going along for the ride anyway.

I think what I consider his range to be is wider than what you consider his range to be. It is a $1.20 and although I'll take opponent specific reads over buyin specific reads any day we do have to take into consideration that the typical players in these games are loose-passive and are likely to stack off quite light. I really don't think I am going to fold out that many hands because of the fact that it is a $1.20

[jmbreslin 0]

And I don't think you can just rule out QQ-AA based on the fact that he should have reraised PF - this is a $1.75 and players at this level do all sorts of things they shouldn't do, one of the most common being slowplaying big pairs.

Sometimes it's nice to find out that I'm not always completely out to lunch...

[copernicus 0]

Sometimes it's nice to find out that I'm not always completely out to lunch...

We do tend to assume others play like us. See KK min-raise thread, lol.