hey daniel, was johnny chan angle shooting here?

[Random Fluke 0]

From cardplayer's coverage of the WPT Championship:"Johnny Bax was pleased to find himself seated at a table without any top professionals, until Johnny Chan took a seat a dozen or so hands in. Bax looked down a few hands later to find pocket kings, and made a standard raise of $400. Johnny Chan raised him to $1,500, and Bax called. The flop came 9-5-3 rainbow, Bax checked, Chan bet $2,000, and Bax called. The turn card was a 2, and again Bax checked. Johnny Chan put $13,000 in the pot, and then tried to pull $8,000 back, saying he misread the colors through his sunglasses. Bax wanted the bet to stand, and the floor was called over to rule that all $13,000 had to stay in the pot. At that point, Bax pushed all in, and Johnny Chan called immediately with pocket aces. The river was a blank, and Chan doubled up while Bax was sent home as the first elimination of the day."I find it hard to believe with all his experience Chan would make a mistake like this. And even if he did make this mistake, he wouldn't need to waste his time calling the floor; he knows what the ruling is going to be. Seems like he called the floor just to add credibility to his 'mistake'. Am I way off here, or is Chan being as underhanded as it seems?And what difference would the colour of the cards make? if they were all the same suit and matched one of his aces, then why overbet and possibly scare Bax out of the pot?

[blknines 0]

I think that it meant he misread the color of the chips he put in. So he was saying he accidentally bet with a higher denomination chip, making his bet larger than he wanted. And yes, it seems like Chan was doing a little acting there to get his opponent trapped.

[TimmyOne 0]

... this is obviously pure speculation, but there's a possible "median" explanation ...Chan might very well have made a mistake by betting 13k (5k does seem a much more reasonable bet in this case), but once he made the mistake it was in his best interest to do a little acting and exploit the error because his opponent was likely to try and take advantage of it.This story seems pretty similar to Fischman's Cardplayer article ("don't snow a snower") ...

[Random Fluke 0]

Any opinion on this DN?

[Vanillathunder 0]

Hmmm... unethical? Yes.Smart way to use the rules? Yup.

[koolromeo 0]

what's wrong with this play? he didnt cheat. he pulled off a great "bluff" in my opinion. i see no difference between this and acting weak or strong to manipulate an opponent. manipulation is a big part of this game, and he pulled off a dousy here. great play johnny! i'll try this the first chance i get, and i'm sure it will work.

[MikeR 0]

Johnny Chan can do whatever he wants. He's Johnny Chan.

[Random Fluke 0]

Johnny Chan can do whatever he wants. He's Johnny Chan.

Maybe, but to me this makes him look like an angle-shooting douche bag.

[Petoria 0]

That's what makes Johnny Chan the best. He may have misread his chips, but once he did he knew how to get all of Bax's money. Johnny is the man because he knows how to use table talk.

[MikeR 0]

Johnny Chan can do whatever he wants. He's Johnny Chan.

Maybe, but to me this makes him look like an angle-shooting douche bag.

You should beat his ass headsup and show him that you will not tolerate that sort of thing.

[Vanillathunder 0]

Johnny Chan can do whatever he wants. He's Johnny Chan.

Maybe, but to me this makes him look like an angle-shooting douche bag.

"You see all the angles ... you just never have the stones to play them." Amen, there Mikey McDee.

[DJ_Chaps 0]

^^^^ Burn.

[Sushiman 0]

I think it's interesting when that other forum member did this and posted about it you guys all called him unethical and a loser in life. Then when Chan does it it's a great man making a great play.

[Scanner313 0]

I don't see how this could even be considered a "move" by Chan. The bet of $5K was substantial considering the other guy was checking and calling the entire way. Chan had to know the guy was on a pair to call his raises the entire way. He KNEW he had the best starting pair but didn't know if the other guy had hit a set on the flop or turn. Chan has a pair of Aces and a straight draw. How could he think he has the nuts when the other guy called every raise? He had to think this guy might be trying to trap him.So, he puts $13K in and then tries immediately to pull back $8K stating it was an accident due to his sunglasses. Hey, everyone, even the pros make mistakes sometimes. It's not unthinkable. And why would this move help him? He's still betting another $5K on this hand when the BB was only what, $100 or $200? How is this implying weakness? He's betting 25-50x the BB on the river after already betting $3500 on the deal and flop.Maybe I'm missing something here, but I think the other guy reading Chan's mistake as a sign of weakness was a bad move. Going all-in with a pair of Kings when the guy you're up against has significantly raised every street doesn't seem to me to be a good move. Come over the top of Chan for $15K or something, and see what he does, but I wouldn't risk my entire stack on that call assuming Chan had nothing better than a smaller pair. But, that's just me.Anyway, I dont' think Chan did anything wrong here, nor do I think he INTENDED to do anything wrong.

[MikeR 0]

I think it's interesting when that other forum member did this and posted about it you guys all called him unethical and a loser in life. Then when Chan does it it's a great man making a great play.

Win 9 WSOP bracelets and we cut you a little slack.

[Vanillathunder 0]

I think it's interesting when that other forum member did this and posted about it you guys all called him unethical and a loser in life. Then when Chan does it it's a great man making a great play.

No, it's different circumstances, completely.

[....Ian.... 0]

Johnny Changle shooter?

[Stylistic 0]

IMO,Chan overbetting the pot is totally UNNECESSARY. If i were in chan's position i'd be scared of a set maybe. I'm pretty sure chan was worried when his Bax said that the chips are to stay in the pot. To be honest, Bax should be worried about AA and fire back instead of just calling. The way he played that, it looked like a set. Also another thing on mistakes, Mistakes happens. If anyone's ever been to commerce casino, their tournament chip colors are quite confusing. Especially for a person first playing there.

[elkang 0]

I think it's interesting when that other forum member did this and posted about it you guys all called him unethical and a loser in life. Then when Chan does it it's a great man making a great play.

Well if it happened under the exact same situations then sorry about the other guy. Being a top player has its perks. But, somehow I feel the situations were different.Maybe Chan was angle shooting here. But, these things happen. It is unfair to challenge him when you don't know. It all seems quite reasonable and well played based on the 150 words I read.

[floping_quads 0]

That play was brillent. He obvisly knew Bax had a high pocket pair( not aces) ANd would take that play to be weakness. I bet Johnny pissed off alot of people at that table tough. Nothing they could do of course...

[adidas freak 0]

I think it's interesting when that other forum member did this and posted about it you guys all called him unethical and a loser in life. Then when Chan does it it's a great man making a great play.

When you area a two time world champion, you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

[Governator 54]

reverse psychology perhaps?

[Random Fluke 0]

When you area a two time world champion, you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

Sure you can, just like any other unethical piece of trash. If you think being a champion gives you the right to be a douche, I feel sorry for you. Everyone that thinks this is ok obviously doesn't care about whether poker is regarded an honourable game or a shady game people can turn up their nose at.

[ckbandit 0]

Everyone that thinks this is ok obviously doesn't care about whether poker is regarded an honourable game or a shady game people can turn up their nose at.

Couldn't deception (a key component in poker) be construed as "shady"?He played within the rules of poker to win a big pot. I'm not defending his actions, but he did take down that hand.

[MikeR 0]

When you area a two time world champion, you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

Sure you can, just like any other unethical piece of trash. If you think being a champion gives you the right to be a douche, I feel sorry for you. Everyone that thinks this is ok obviously doesn't care about whether poker is regarded an honourable game or a shady game people can turn up their nose at.

Someone must defend the honor of poker!