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For starters, I know I played this horrible.. Or Atleast I think I did...2/5 NL at the Fallsview casino this morning...Bought in for 200, roughly doubled up with aces 4th hand in, so stack is around 370ish..Dealt 2 2 UTG, I limp, UTG + 3 raises to 30 everyone else folds, I call.Flop : 2 K 2 ( 2 hearts )I check, he bets 35, I call.Turn : Ace of spades I check, he bets 60, I call River : 9 of hearts I check, he checks.. Raise the turn? If so how much.. The river check was horrible.. First time flopping quads without 3 on board, so really had clue how to play it.

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I'd have min raised the turn hoping to induce a re-raise, but that's just me. Yeah, check on the river was bad, would have overbet on the river myself, but that's a tough situation with the flush hitting.

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Blah -- bad turn card. It's hard to check raise the turn because not many Kings are going to reraise you. Any other turn card calls for a reraise, but I think reraising here absolutely murders your action. I would never check the river though. Throw out a value bet and just try to get paid. It's going to be hard to stack hm unless you're really lucky and he has AK. Sometimes you can't get water from a rock...EDIT - didn't see the flush got there. This gives you a lot of ways to play. A largish bet looks like a missed flush sometimes and a value bet induces the beloved hero call...

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First off, don't limp UTG and fold to the reraise preflop.I check raise the flop, try and make it look like you have a PP 66-99 or some trash like KJ and are trying to pick off a c-bet. Shouldn't be that hard since you limped PF. This will work much better if he thinks you're a fish. If he reraises the flop then AI, if he calls behind then I think I check the turn, try and make it look like you're shutting down with your PP. Then check raise him again. All the money should be in at this point, if not just bet the river.

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Checkminraise the turn or put a small donk bet on the river. He's basically never betting that river with Ax or Kx but sometimes he'll call a small bet. If he's got a flush, he'll raise anyway.

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limp calling preflop is one of the bigger and more common leaks that people have, its a really terrible idea. It took me a while to internalize knowledge of position enough to stop myself from doing it, but I'm much better off for it.

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1st thing to remember when you flop quads or make quads is that, barring the chance or a sign that your opponent has made a very big hand too, you will hardly ever win a pot that feels big enough for how hard you hit your hand. 2nd, I think we have to make a small turn raise. I think villain's range includes an A enough that we need to get some extra money in here. I don't think the A was a horrible card, actually...it catches a flop c-betting villain as often as it hurts him, imo. I think the river is a terrible card for us. I agree with donkbetting something small because casino players so often chase flushes that your opponent will give you credit for it much more often than one online would.

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I think the limp/call preflop is definitely a losing play.
fwiw, I kinda disagree that limp/calling pairs is going to be a loseing play in the long run. however on the same note, I also do not think it is the best way to maximize thier EV.And I am not saying limping small pairs ism't a leak, anything you are doing that doesn't max your EV is a leak.(I am also pretty sure I just set back a bunch of mirco stake players learning curve 3 months, giving them an excuse to justify limping.)
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1st thing to remember when you flop quads or make quads is that, barring the chance or a sign that your opponent has made a very big hand too, you will hardly ever win a pot that feels big enough for how hard you hit your hand. 2nd, I think we have to make a small turn raise. I think villain's range includes an A enough that we need to get some extra money in here. I don't think the A was a horrible card, actually...it catches a flop c-betting villain as often as it hurts him, imo. I think the river is a terrible card for us. I agree with donkbetting something small because casino players so often chase flushes that your opponent will give you credit for it much more often than one online would.
quads = dominating the board -- no one else has room to pay you offvery very unlikely someone else has a set when you flop quadspaired boards mean straights and flushes are gong to be very very cautious about paying you offLearn to river quads instead of flopping it
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fwiw, I kinda disagree that limp/calling pairs is going to be a loseing play in the long run. however on the same note, I also do not think it is the best way to maximize thier EV.And I am not saying limping small pairs ism't a leak, anything you are doing that doesn't max your EV is a leak.(I am also pretty sure I just set back a bunch of mirco stake players learning curve 3 months, giving them an excuse to justify limping.)
Sometimes I don't mind l/c a small pair.In this case, with a 74bb stack UTG, I really don't think the limp is a good play.Calling the raise is a definite losing play. At best we can make 15x our preflop call, and we would need 11.7 if our opponent open shoves any and every flop. In actual fact we need something like 17-25x implied.Best case realistic scenario is we break even by calling.
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This is a conversation I can really sink my teeth into because I've transitioned between so many styles over the past 2 months that I'm like a bisexual lesbian homosexual that just went through a sex change - i get confused.Before, I would limp/call with smaller pairs a lot. Then I talked to Simo, I ramped up my aggression and I became more positionally (and player specific) aware. Still, there are situations where you're losing money by being 100% raise/fold. Now, the problem is, you're OOP preflop, so you have no way of knowing when these situations will arise. I will give examples, and I understand that the come back will be 'but you dont know when this will happen'. I agree 100%. Im agreeing with cwik, only doing it much more verbosely, so that I can try to trick some of you into thinking Im smart and/or good at the poker. Basically the main examples will all revolve around the same group of hands. You have something like 66 in EP or MP, you have an effective stack of 100bbs (assume, if you want, that you're 20,000BBs deep, but everyone else at the table is only 100bbs deep), You raise, and now the nit in HJ, who raises 1.2% of his hands preflop, repops it to 12BBs. In this situation you're put in a very tricky situation. You're getting ~8.3:1 implied odds on your call, better than your odds of hitting your set. And given HJs tight 3-betting range, you're 100% sure he has AA, KK, or QQ, and so you'll very likely stack him given stack sizes. But once you factor in being out of position and the fact that you arent 100% to win if you hit a set (only 4:1 to win with 4 cards to come) its very marginal and you should probably fold. If his PFR range gets any wider, this is a fold 100% of the time. So how can we fix this? Well, we never know when people are going to raise behind us if we limp our small-med pocket pair. And just because someone raises limpers in late position doesn't mean he has a real hand that will pay off a set should we hit. So, as many things in poker, it starts to depend. On the table, on the raiser, on the number of people in the pot, etc... So can you limp your small/med PPs in EP? Most online players say no. Dan Harrington, fwiw, says yes, occassionally. Im pretty sure Doyle Brunson would say no. Whats the point of all of this? There is probably no right or wrong answer. If you limp your 88 and no one raises and you flop a set - you'll lose some value. You could even lose the hand if the board comes 867 hearts. Its okay to mix up your play from time to time. It also depends on whether or not you're 6max or FR. Are you like Simo, where basically your range is your range? Or are you like me, where you limp about 5% more than you raise? If you're going to open limp 88 or 22, you'll occassionally have to open limp AA and KK. I'm going to make another post on this, actually, as its something thats been weighing on my mind. I don't believe there is much of a mental metagame at micro/low stakes. But with pokertracker and the advent of HUDs, I believe there is a metagame between player and datamining. How can I conceal my range, how can I hide from the computer what my hand is? Well, again, there are two avenues: Raising as close to 100% of your range as possible or mixing up your limps - big and speculative hands. Either way can win and win big, what you need to do is what every poker player needs to do to be successful: Understand the fundamentals of poker, play your draws and your opponents draws mathematically sound, and concentrate on being a good post-flop player. Preflop mistakes are tiny. Flop mistakes are bigger. Turn mistakes are large. River mistakes are huge. As for the hand in question, I feel that being oop hurts us, but at some point in time I'd like to represent a floosh draw. I realize this may kill our action on the flop if we try a check raise or a donk lead. I actually get the feeling that villain has something like QQ here from the pf action and his bet sizes. If he had AK or KQ or any Ace, i think, his flop and turn bets would have been bigger. Maybe a turn check raise? You definitely can't check this river, though, imo.

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Check/raising is really representing that you have a 2.Check/raising the turn looks very strong and its going to be hard to get a call from him unless he has AK.He is probably scared of the flush hitting on the river so he is likely not betting if checked to, leading out like 1/2-2/3 pot you might get called by an A or K.I might just donkbet/call the flop, and hope he raises with a King or AA. He will almost certainly call with a mid pair or flush draw.I think bet/call is better than bet/3bet, cause a 3 bet will most likely fold out all other hands. He may put us on a flush draw if we bet/call the flop and fire again on the turn.

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why don't you raise this flop? you might end up all in with a KQ or AK, definitely maximizing your value by playing this kind of hand fast. even if he has AK, if you pop him on the turn when the ace hits, you're going to pretty much scream that you have a deuce.raising the flop tells him a couple of things; you either have a king (most likely), you have a smaller pair than king and bigger than deuce, or you have a deuce. If he has AK or KQ here, he's probably putting in a 3bet or calling you down since he has no idea where he's at but his hand is too strong on that flop to fold

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Thanks for the replies, he did have AK.. For those that were wondering, I know I totally botched the hand, I must admit that is the first time in a long while that I had no plan on what to do with the hand after I seen the quads. I was hoping for the non heart river so I could overbet so it could look like a missed flush. Then when the heart hit I had no clue what approach to take and just checked.. so blah.. lol

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Check/raising is really representing that you have a 2.
Yes and no. How many hands with a 2 in it aside from mabye A2s would we ever limp/call?
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Yes and no. How many hands with a 2 in it aside from mabye A2s would we ever limp/call?
That's an interested point. Flopping quads is ALSO well-disguised. We just need to the villain to catch something in the hand.Speaking of quads, I'm chasing the bad beat on Absolute (finder's fee of 10% if any you bastards go over there and win it now). This morning, I flopped a set of kings and got it all in v. someone who flopped a straight, with a SF redraw. I hit the fourth K and the red nine hits the river .... wrong red nine. Man, was that close. Nine of hearts instead of nine of diamonds hits and you boys don't hear from me for a while.
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