Battle Of The Blinds, Flopping Trips--

[TrueAce13 18]

Villain has been getting involved with a lot of hands and been reraising me a lot when it is folded around to the blinds. PokerStars Game #16666195075: Tournament #84403682, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (600/1200) - 2008/04/12 - 02:32:23 (ET)Table '84403682 15' 9-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: jmt915 (56681 in chips) Seat 2: Coolmanjw (25617 in chips) Seat 3: yruadummy (30475 in chips) Seat 4: TrueAce13 (25351 in chips) Seat 5: trinimac (46103 in chips) Seat 7: www.money (85773 in chips) jmt915: posts the ante 125Coolmanjw: posts the ante 125yruadummy: posts the ante 125TrueAce13: posts the ante 125trinimac: posts the ante 125www.money: posts the ante 125yruadummy: posts small blind 600TrueAce13: posts big blind 1200*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to TrueAce13 [5s Qd]trinimac: folds www.money: folds jmt915: folds Coolmanjw: folds yruadummy said, "weve been going 3 hours"yruadummy: calls 600TrueAce13: checks *** FLOP *** [6h Qh Qc]yruadummy: checks TrueAce13: bets 2400yruadummy: raises 2400 to 4800TrueAce13: raises 6000 to 10800yruadummy: raises 18350 to 29150 and is all-inTrueAce13: calls 13226 and is all-in*** TURN *** [6h Qh Qc] [3h]*** RIVER *** [6h Qh Qc 3h] [Ks]*** SHOW DOWN ***yruadummy: shows [Th Qs] (three of a kind, Queens)TrueAce13: shows [5s Qd] (three of a kind, Queens - lower kicker)TrueAce13 said, "gg all"yruadummy collected 51202 from potyruadummy said, "wow"trinimac said, "gg"*** SUMMARY ***Total pot 51202 | Rake 0 Board [6h Qh Qc 3h Ks]Seat 1: jmt915 folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 2: Coolmanjw (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 3: yruadummy (small blind) showed [Th Qs] and won (51202) with three of a kind, QueensSeat 4: TrueAce13 (big blind) showed [5s Qd] and lost with three of a kind, QueensSeat 5: trinimac folded before Flop (didn't bet)Seat 7: www.money folded before Flop (didn't bet)Anything differently in this hand?

[tentenoffsuit 0]

fold preflop

[Aces Rule 0]

After he re-raised you 18,350 and was all-in you must have felt your stomack drop a little but how do you get away from top set? It would have been a fantastic laydown I don't think one player in 100,000 could make. You got cold decked and that's the long and short of it.

[outsider13 0]

Pretty much everybody loses this hand. Cooler, and nothing more/less. GG though and well done.

[copernicus 0]

Im not going to say this is an easy laydown, but I dont think its that hard either. This hand points out the huge difference between SETS and TRIPS. Trips are very vulnerable to villain's kickers and to villain's boats. When you get action like this on trips proceed with caution. What could villain have to min-raise the flop? Even if he thinks you are just cb'ing why would he raise a naked ace or underpair now instead of pre-flop? Maybe for deception but also maybe he had Qx also, and there arent many Xs you beat. This would be an unusual way to play 2 hearts, and anything that raises except Q2,Q3,Q4 has you on a 3 outer. Also with 2 hearts on the board dont re-reraise the flop, you're forcing a heart draw to play correctly with the flop re-raise.As played his push back is clearly fold-able and far from a heroic laydown.

[MrLucy 0]

I want to fold with that crappy kicker on the flop, after he raises your lead on the flop I think you get away from this with your kicker. Dont post results and get better input. Maybe call and get it in if the flush doesnt hit on the turn? idkWasnt there a post from Daniel in one of these Forums with this very situation?MrLucy

[jmbreslin 0]

What could villain have to min-raise the flop? Even if he thinks you are just cb'ing why would he raise a naked ace or underpair now instead of pre-flop? Maybe for deception but also maybe he had Qx also, and there arent many Xs you beat.

Very important point, especially since the OP states that villain has been reraising him a lot when folded around to him in the blinds. You'd have to expect villain to raise PF with a PP or an Ace, so what else would he be check-minraising with here other than a Q?

[BeaverStyle 1]

Don't post results.I don't fold trips in a bvb battle this deep in $4.40's... like ever. You shouldn't either (barring a significantly good read..)

[TravisG 0]

Don't post results.I don't fold trips in a bvb battle this deep in $4.40's... like ever. You shouldn't either (barring a significantly good read..)

yeah that's pretty much true overall, but this is a special case. the action given comes from the villain SHOUTING out that he has a Q. i think it's a lay down, i mean, what's hand reading for if you don't use it. 4.40 guys may be donks but i really doubt he plays ace-high/pair like this. not an easy laydown at all, i probably go into the tank, but not because enemys hand is so hard to read. heros hand is just so hard to let go in a bvb battle.

[Sheiky 0]

Just flat his flop min raise and see how the hand develops, he's either crushed of got 2 outs(or a flush draw), in position i think flatting is better than re-raising.

[ah2388 0]

Just flat his flop min raise and see how the hand develops, he's either crushed of got 2 outs(or a flush draw), in position i think flatting is better than re-raising.

given his read, villain is likely to be raising a lot of Qx hands preflop..I assume he also raises with 66On top of that, he might be going nuts with some random pair, as people go crazy in these things imo..I do agree that flatting his minraise is best, because if we 3bet and he jams...were crushed a lot...although given his read(my thoughts above, im never folding)

[Jam-Fly 8]

Im not going to say this is an easy laydown, but I dont think its that hard either. This hand points out the huge difference between SETS and TRIPS. Trips are very vulnerable to villain's kickers and to villain's boats. When you get action like this on trips proceed with caution. What could villain have to min-raise the flop? Even if he thinks you are just cb'ing why would he raise a naked ace or underpair now instead of pre-flop? Maybe for deception but also maybe he had Qx also, and there arent many Xs you beat. This would be an unusual way to play 2 hearts, and anything that raises except Q2,Q3,Q4 has you on a 3 outer. Also with 2 hearts on the board dont re-reraise the flop, you're forcing a heart draw to play correctly with the flop re-raise.As played his push back is clearly fold-able and far from a heroic laydown.

You don't think he could have ATC here? He could simply just think the hero is trying to steal and raise him back with nothing.I think since it's a $4.40, I have to go broke here.If it was a higher buy in, ugh, I dunno, so sick. If I had respect for the player, I think I'd fold and save my last 13k, but it's very sick.

[Danny Dingleberry 0]

You don't think he could have ATC here? He could simply just think the hero is trying to steal and raise him back with nothing.I think since it's a $4.40, I have to go broke here.If it was a higher buy in, ugh, I dunno, so sick. If I had respect for the player, I think I'd fold and save my last 13k, but it's very sick.

I don't think the average 4.40 player thinks much at it all. XYY flops are good because they're easy to stab at, and easy to get away from. with that sorta flop/action you're really only beating a brave bluff or some sort of weird pair. or maybe a wacky draw. but yeah. what cop said. what probably makes it harder is it's BvB... but ignoring that, there isn't really a whole lot you beat... (^what travisg said)

[Jam-Fly 8]

I don't think the average 4.40 player thinks much at it all. XYY flops are good because they're easy to stab at, and easy to get away from. with that sorta flop/action you're really only beating a brave bluff or some sort of weird pair. or maybe a wacky draw. but yeah. what cop said. what probably makes it harder is it's BvB... but ignoring that, there isn't really a whole lot you beat... (^what travisg said)

So your saying that because it IS a $4.40, that would lead you to fold? (and lead you to fold after a min raise??)

[copernicus 0]

You don't think he could have ATC here? He could simply just think the hero is trying to steal and raise him back with nothing.I think since it's a $4.40, I have to go broke here.If it was a higher buy in, ugh, I dunno, so sick. If I had respect for the player, I think I'd fold and save my last 13k, but it's very sick.

OP said that villain is a liberal raiser pre-flop BvB, which indicates he may be a thinking/decent player. Since he didnt raise here we can eliminate most Aces, most Ks, all pairs from his range. What can he possibly think he is representing with a bluff that you would believe beats a Q if you have one, which you have represented as being in your range?

[Jam-Fly 8]

OP said that villain is a liberal raiser pre-flop BvB, which indicates he may be a thinking/decent player. Since he didnt raise here we can eliminate most Aces, most Ks, all pairs from his range. What can he possibly think he is representing with a bluff that you would believe beats a Q if you have one, which you have represented as being in your range?

He doesn't have to be representing anything that beats a queen if he thinks we can have 49o. The situation I am referring to is the "folds round to SB who completes with mediocre hand. BB checks with mediocre hand. Flop comes YYX. SB checks. BB bets becuase he feels SB has nothing. SB feels that BB too has nothing, and is just trying to steal, thus, SB reraises". Do you believe this line of thinking is completely unreasonable?

[copernicus 0]

He doesn't have to be representing anything that beats a queen if he thinks we can have 49o. The situation I am referring to is the "folds round to SB who completes with mediocre hand. BB checks with mediocre hand. Flop comes YYX. SB checks. BB bets becuase he feels SB has nothing. SB feels that BB too has nothing, and is just trying to steal, thus, SB reraises". Do you believe this line of thinking is completely unreasonable?

Yes, I think its completely unreasonable starting at "SB feels that BB too has nothing, and is just trying to steal, thus SB reraises. If SB is going to commit more chips on a bluff after BB's bet he's pushing, not raising, especially at the 4.40 level. In fact, if he was going to try to steal the hand, he would open such an apparently dry flop, not check it. This would have been a better discussion without results, but again, hero can get away from it without it being considered a heroic laydown. That doesnt mean that even some great players wont fold, but there are enough clues here for caution imo.

[Jam-Fly 8]

Yes, I think its completely unreasonable starting at "SB feels that BB too has nothing, and is just trying to steal, thus SB reraises. If SB is going to commit more chips on a bluff after BB's bet he's pushing, not raising, especially at the 4.40 level. In fact, if he was going to try to steal the hand, he would open such an apparently dry flop, not check it. This would have been a better discussion without results, but again, hero can get away from it without it being considered a heroic laydown. That doesnt mean that even some great players wont fold, but there are enough clues here for caution imo.

I'm sorry, I disagree. I feel it's very possible for the SB to interprete the BBs bet as weakness, and therefore raisee.Btw, just so we're clear, the min-raise is the raise I am talking about it. Also, after thinking about it some more I think after the SB pushes, it's a clear fold. I think it should be a standard fold, but I'm sure if I'm not playing my A game, I go bust here.

[copernicus 0]

. Also, after thinking about it some more I think after the SB pushes, it's a clear fold. I think it should be a standard fold, but I'm sure if I'm not playing my A game, I go bust here.

We ultimately we agree that its not impossible to get away from the hand so we are drawing the same inferences from the betting. No matter how SB interprets BBs bet, his raise should tell BB that theres a good chance he's behind to a better kicker or a boat. Players just dont bluff with minraises.

[TravisG 0]

I'm sorry, I disagree. I feel it's very possible for the SB to interprete the BBs bet as weakness, and therefore raisee.

maybe, but 999 out of 1000 cases villain doesn't just minraise-bluff. he raises more or just shoves. no waaaayyyy this is not a value raise.