Anyone else ever do this?

[brando 0]

OK so i'm playing in a 10+1 STT, start out with 1500 in chips.It's the third hand - Blinds are 10-20 - I'm in middle position with 78 UTG raises to 40, the min, I call and we see a 4 way floppot = 160Flop 2 5 7 - with 2 spadesUTG bets 100 - I raise to 285 - One other call - One FoldUTG then re-raises all In - I call - Player 3 foldsI was about 70% sure after the raise all in he had QQ, KK, or AAwith about a 30% chance of him having AKSo I thought about 70% of the time I would be beat and called anyway.Needless to say he flipped up KK and I hit my spade doubled up and ended up winning the tournament.So my question is do you guys do this sometimes, call pretty much knowing your beat, but you just can't lay it down?I know we do for small amounts, but this was an all in on the 3rd hand of a tournament, wish I had more discipline cause I got lucky!

[l0nd0n3 0]

Sometimes you need to use your gut. It is hard either way. Sometimes you just want to play. So you need to realise which it is.

[BPV 0]

i personally hate going all in on a draw.. because i never hit it.. and i hate when others go all in on a draw.. becaue they always hit it.

[Offsuit 0]

i personally hate going all in on a draw.. because i never hit it.. and i hate when others go all in on a draw.. becaue they always hit it.

I feel ya BPV...I feel ya.I'll make a call like that if I'm playing a "play money" game and I'm getting bored with it, but I've learned my lesson when real money is involved.

[looshle 6]

Well if he had any type of overpair, its an automatic call. If he doesn't have a spade, you actually have the best hand but if he does have a spades its only like 53-47. You gotta remember that you aren't just drawing to a flush, you're drawing to 2 pair and trips, which gives you 15 outs, and I'll go all in on a flop w/ 15 outs every single time.

[ErikM 0]

It happens to all of us, but at least you had 14 outs (9 spades, 2 7's, 3 8's)

[Randy Reed 0]

Last night in a $10 STT, I was low guy with about 900 chips and 5 left and decided to go all-in from 1st position with 89 hoping I could steal some blinds. To my dismay, 2 called, Pocket A's and K's and I started sinking into my hole until I flopped the straight and ended up catching the flush. The were giving me hell!

[Random Fluke 0]

IF i have the guy covered, I call here every time. Even if he has AA you are a slight favourite with 14 outs. If I dont have him covered... dunno, early tourney i'd prob still call, late tourney maybe not.

[Random Fluke 0]

IF i have the guy covered, I call here every time. Even if he has AA you are a slight favourite with 14 outs. If I dont have him covered... dunno, early tourney i'd prob still call, late tourney maybe not.

[SLTS 0]

OK so i'm playing in a 10+1 STT, start out with 1500 in chips.It's the third hand - Blinds are 10-20 - I'm in middle position with 78 UTG raises to 40, the min, I call and we see a 4 way floppot = 160Flop 2 5 7 - with 2 spadesUTG bets 100 - I raise to 285 - One other call - One FoldUTG then re-raises all In - I call - Player 3 foldsI was about 70% sure after the raise all in he had QQ, KK, or AAwith about a 30% chance of him having AKSo I thought about 70% of the time I would be beat and called anyway.Needless to say he flipped up KK and I hit my spade doubled up and ended up winning the tournament.So my question is do you guys do this sometimes, call pretty much knowing your beat, but you just can't lay it down?I know we do for small amounts, but this was an all in on the 3rd hand of a tournament, wish I had more discipline cause I got lucky!

so he re-raises all in. Is the pot giving you correct odds now?

[Eclypse 0]

IF i have the guy  covered, I call here every time. Even if he has AA you are a slight favourite with 14 outs. If I dont have him covered... dunno, early tourney i'd prob still call, late tourney maybe not.

I think Random Fluke has the right idea here, except that for me, I would be more apt to do this toward the end of a tournament when the blinds are catching up with my chip stack. At the beginning of a tournament the blinds are still small enough that I can afford to be more conservative. (I’m just now beginning to play in tournaments though, so someone let me know if this is wrong).But, if I’ve got a lot more chips than the KK I’m going to do it every time as well.

[einbert 0]

I think you could have folded from middle position to an UTG raise with 78s, but calling for a raise of just the minimum is probably not an awful play, especially early in the tournament if you have more than the average stack. If you play 78s and flop top pair, a flush draw and a backdoor straight draw, you have to be absolutely this flop. On the flop, you absolutely did the right thing by raising the initial bet, I don't think anyone will argue with that. When he reraises you all in, I think you can make an easy call. The only hands that have you beat are a set because you're only drawing to 9 outs against a lot of redraws (you're beat pretty badly here, but that hand is also fairly unlikely) and A7 with the ace of spades, because then you're drawing to 3 outs against a possible higher flush redraw. AK of spades also has you beat I believe, but I really think you have to make this call. Most of the time you're facing an overpair at most, and you're a favorite against that (very likely) hand. If he flopped a set, he would be more likely to slow play his hand by check raising instead of betting out (I think this is a huge tendency in online SnG tournaments).I would make that call at any point in any tournament, and for all my chips. The only way I could fold that hand on that flop is if I'm more than 50% sure that my opponent has a set, and the action didn't indicate that at all. I think you played this hand very well postflop. I wouldn't have called preflop but it's not necessarilly a bad call either.

[Guest XXEddie]

Many payers will go all in knowing their beat usually with flush draws. They do this because even though they are an underdog, IF they can hit the needed card they will have a lot of chips.

[naugie 0]

You were getting a little under 2 to 1 odds on your read of about 14 outs which is better than, though somewhere in the vicinity of, even. Absolutely a profitable call. And yes, I'm more likely to do this at the end of the tourny, because by that time, I have a lot more chips than anybody, or I need to gamble to win first, but probably will cash anyway, while at the beginning, I would like to check out the other players before I make a move, and I like to establish a tight image to exploit later. I have made this exact call with the nut flush draw and a middle pair on the first hand of a sng though. I correctly figured him on a flush draw steal and made two pair to win. Of course, my image then became a loose "fish" to the premium hand players on my way to a top money finish, so a call early on can be used to your advantage imagewise, should you survive.My question is how you can be 70% sure on this that you actually are against an overpair. In the small sngs, i've seen more all ins on a draw with 2 overs than the actual overpair this early in the game. There are lots of people who are there to gamble in an attempt to get alot of chips as well as try to scare people out of pots, even in the $40 buyins, even if there are less than in the $5 or $10. Matter of fact, I flopped top set in a raised pot, bet double the pot against 3 players with a possible flush draw, and got raised all in for 70 more with two overs on the four flush. He said he had "alot of outs" before I showed him my set. This was the second hand of the tourney. The first hand I broke someone else and hurt another 2 with a flopped set. I didn't raise this hand all in either. My point is that in sngs, I don't think you can make this kind of read that early in the game unless you played this guy before, making it an even more profitable call. I understand that you didn't say whether you played this guy before, so you might have more info than I know about. I was going on the fact that so many people play the 10 dollar buy-in games making it harder to recognize someone.

[naugie 0]

I forgot to mention that Super/System promotes betting flush draws and going all in if raised, although it doesn't say how the small ante structure would affect this strategy early in a tournament. Therefore, someone who is studying up but not learning to apply the theories to each situation yet, probably someone with less than average experience, will make this play and think that they are playing good poker. And Championship No limit and Pot limit holdem says only to play a draw if it is the nut draw. So I would have guessed the Ace high flush draw.I in no way mean to say that your read was bad, since obviously you were right. I merely suggest that against the :!: RANDOM :!: player at this level, I would expect the draw or top pair or something like that, and I was given no information about the player. Now if there was no flush draw and the flop was 7 high, then I might expect the overpair to be more likely, but that's just me. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that you made the right call. :-)

[scweeber 0]

It happens to all of us, but at least you had 14 outs (9 spades, 2 7's, 3 8's)

true, you were basically even money t0 win the pot given the (correct) read you had on him...

[JTPHS 0]

OK, first, i'm going to say that i would play this hand scared. UTG raise.. of the minimum screams monster to me. now 87 suited is a great hand to play against AA, KK with great implied odds. Now you get your miracle flop, buddy bets out... you have to be certain that it is AA or KK and he's going to play this with the pedal to the metal on this flop. Raising the flop just invites a move all-in. This i one of the biggest things with no limit holdem.. sometimes it's not the text book right play.. it's the play that keeps your opponent from outplaying you. but furthermore, by raising, you scare out the other people from the pot which you want that money in there incase you hit your monster hand. and you have to know already that you're beat on the 7s. Unless he has something like AK... or AK of spades, but i'm quite sure a bigger raise would come from UTG in my experience... people play AK very aggressively preflop and try to milk high PP. So summary... call and try to hit your monster with more followers if they decide to come, save yourself from getting reraised with a chance that you could lose all your chips, wait for a 7 8 or a spade to come and milk it or muck it on the turn if you miss and he makes it far to expensive.Now there's still the possibilities that he could have the AK of spades or something like that and yuo could be in trouble hitting a spade, but in that case he would just call your raise and if it does come you'd still be confused to what he had. If the spade comes and you've only called, this is were your reads become important.. there's a lot of things i could talk about here, but it's just to hard to explain how i would get my read, personally i'm very confident in mine in online poker. Either way.. you're always playing it scared... i'd personally be praying for another 7:)perfect example of this.. read poker at the plaza hand with Daniel against Annie Duke where he explains very well what i'm trying to say here.btw i know exactly how you feel.. sometimes you just can't lay down... part of the skill of poker is discipline.. but we're all human

[Random Fluke 0]

I would make that call at any point in any tournament, and for all my chips.  The only way I could fold that hand on that flop is if I'm more than 50% sure that my opponent has a set, and the action didn't indicate that at all.  I think you played this hand very well postflop.  I wouldn't have called preflop but it's not necessarilly a bad call either.

Well, I disagree with this. Most of the time I would call this too, but to go so far as to say you would always call here at any point in a tournament seems silly to me. When he went all in here he had a relatively small amount in the pot. Now if he were second in chips with 20 people left out of 1000 who entered a tournament, and the person who was putting him all in was the only person who had him covered, I think he'd be a fool to call this on a coin flip. In that particular situation you want to look for a better spot to get your money in. Now if it were someone he had easily covered in chips he would of course call. Anyway, just my opinion.

[einbert 0]

Well let me clarify a little more. Here is the reason I would make this call at any point.Against AA or KK, you have 9 spades + 5 outs to pair or trips twice. Add an additional one out for the backdoor straight draw with one gap (754) and you get a total of 15 outs against only their two redraws. Subtract half an out because if your opponent has an overpair with the As or Ks they have a higher flush redraw, and I think you can come up with a pretty accurate figure of 14.5 outs twice. Hitting a 13 out draw with two cards to come is even money, but 14.5 outs is almost 60%! You're a 3-2 favorite, this is not a coin flip! The only hand you can be afraid here is a set, and against a set you have 9 outs twice--making you roughly a 3-2 underdog. In a tournament, especially late, I don't mind making calls for all my chips if I am fairly certain that I am a 3-2 favorite. I would have to have more than 25 big blinds left (after my raise on the flop, which is a play I'll always make) to make this laydown.EDIT: Actually you are right, it is closer to a coinflip than the 3-2 figure I was getting. However, I think given the pot odds (about 3-1) and the fact that you have invested half your chips into the pot and if you fold you will be fairly shortstacked (about 400 chips ~= 20 BB but you'll have less than half the average stack at the table) make calling the right play here.After thinking through the entire hand a little more, I kind of prefer moving in on the flop to a standard-sized raise. Yes, you'll probably still get called by AA or KK but you're less likely to have to put your money in against a coinflip situation. However, if you move in here there is a higher chance that an overpair (particularly a more vulnerable one, TT or JJ) would fold. I think I would have done that to put my opponent to a decision for all his chips rather than give him the chance to bully me out of the pot. Also I think flat-calling on the flop and waiting to see the turn card (which is going to significantly affect your odds of winning the hand). If it's a spade or if it gives you two pair or trips, you can safely move in knowing you almost certainly have the best hand. If it's a blank, you know that you are now significantly behind and you can probably make the laydown and keep half your remaining chips. There is also the chance that a flat call on the flop will give you a free card on the turn, where a standard raise on the flop is almost always going to be responded with an all-in (I think). If a 6 comes on the turn you will improve to an open-ended straight draw as well as your other draws, and your opponent is likely to give you a free card because of the scare card (if you were on a straight draw). It's a pretty complicated hand to play I guess.Does anyone else think flat-calling is perhaps more effective? I'm really not sure what I would do in this situation. The most likely scenario I can see for making this laydown is being in a satellite tournament, where for example maybe the top ten players get a seat in a bigger tourney but 11th place gets nothing and you have a big chip stack. In that case, though, I wouldn't have played 78s in the first place.Just thought I'd give a little more reasoning as to why I feel very inclined to make this call. I can understand the logic behind folding (you feel you can wait and get your chips in in a better spot), but also realize that you have already invested nearly half of your chips in this pot--therefore, I think calling for all your chips is clearly the right play. If you aren't prepared to make the call, maybe you should have just flatcalled on the flop and tried to hit your draw for cheap.Just my $.02 .

[naugie 0]

I actually like the raise on the flop. With this kind of thing, you are representing an assortment of hands, while his response limits your reads down. The size of his bet could be a continuation bet or a semibluff, in which case the raise could win it right here, and you narrow the pot down to a heads up pot to protect your top pair when you don't hit the flush. Like I said, the only thing I might contend with would be the read of the high pair. In my experience, a 10 dollar buy in is filled with people who don't consider position and only raise the minimum the vast majority of the time. Matter of fact, I see this all the time in the $50 buy ins I play.

[JTPHS 0]

Naugie I think you're right... i think maybe i should have said that it's better to play this hand in worst case scenario especially because I would have such a strong read that this guy had a high pocket pair. I don't know why, i just tend to be right a lot. But that's just me and it's a different style of play i guess. However, I think the fundementally correct play in the scenario assuming he does have the KK, is a call. That would be tough to argue.

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

I had a similar hand today...playing K 3 in the big blind with 2 limpers. Flop comes A K 8 giving me middle pair with the nut flush draw. I check and the guy on the button bets out....1/4 of his stack....I call, and I put him on the A right away (my fault here is not raising). The other limper folds. Turn comes A He goes all in and I have him covered, so at this point I figure I'm drawing dead to a diamond, but it's a chance to knock out a strong player and build up an almost insurmountable chip stack. So, playing a little loosely due to a big win 2 hands earlier, I call. Little did I know I was drawing dead, b/c he turned over A 8 for the full house. Oops. But it's ok, because I ended up winning the game.

[naugie 0]

I know what you're saying. I really wouldn't have played that hand in the first place either at this point in my skill level, but it's coming soon. As for being right so often, maybe you have ESPN. I mean ESP.Cracked Aces, I really can't say what I think of the hand without knowing the actual amount of the pot, the bet sizes, and the stack sizes and such, because I have no idea of the odds. The only thing I can say is that the call on the turn must have offered tremendous odds to make it, though I'm sure it helped your image.Otherwise, congratulations on your win.:dance:

[JTPHS 0]

don't want to come off as cocky there.. i was typing quickly... my reads have been good lately and have good confidence in them.. all i meant by that..

[hoof31 0]

This seems easy to me, if he has you covered and you are comfortable with makming an earley exit call. If you want to still be playing at the end, don't call.